Had a great day!

[ribka]

To the OP: I'm glad you had a good day and your buddy got his first rooster. Those old dogs are a pleasure to hunt with. You'll get that pup under control. 

Haha.  I don’t want him under control too soon. Right now I want to see him RUN and find the front.  He usually handles pretty well, but at this point, the least of my concerns is him being under control.  I want to build his confidence and independence.
[/quote]

Yep. Want your you g dog to get on as many wild birds as possible and some  times that means ranging ahead a bit. MOST well bred dogs figure  it out on their own.  JUST have to monitor  that it doesn't start hunting for itself

[Forks]

This is a funny one. Opinions are flying and someone is pretty easy to get going just like the Chukar hunt went wrong thread.

[jetjockey]

WTH merkelman? If you don't like the OP's post, find another thread or start your own. This site's purpose is to supporting other hunters.

Haha.  No worries.  Trust me, stuff like that doesn’t bother me.  I’ve been upland hunting for more than 30 years.  I currently have licenses for CO, NE, and KS, and last year I had a TX license as well.  I remember when places like Sunnyside and Royal City were loaded with pheasants. Next week I’ll hunt blue quail, bob white quail, and pheasants all in the same day.  Might even find a chicken or two if we’re lucky, even though I won’t shoot one.  I get as much enjoyment now days watching dogs run and hunt, as I do pulling the tigger.  I know what I want in a dog, and what it takes to hunt most of the upland birds in the US.  When people ask what the point of a dog pointing 500 yards away is, I just laugh...: The point is food on the table!...... Hell, next year I’m thinking about adding ptarmigan to the list of birds I’ll hunt, as suposidly we have pretty good ptarmigan numbers in CO.  Not sure what kind of dog that will take, but a dog thats in phenomenal shape, and lots of heart, will probably be a good start.... I have a couple of those! 😉

[bornhunter]

Jetjockey what a great post. I too hunted Sunnyside,Grandview,Prosser and other areas 30 to 40 years ago and had pheasant shooting only dreamed about today. Good to hear there are still some birds out there although I sure cant find bird hunting in eastern wa like the old days. I feel guilty when my nutso birdy female yellow lab hunts so hard all day with nothing but a couple of top notches to show for it. Wish there was something we could all do ro bring back just a few quality hunts over there.

[tlbradford]

WTH merkelman? If you don't like the OP's post, find another thread or start your own. This site's purpose is to supporting other hunters.

I actually like threads like this as well.  It prompts discussion where people can learn.  Everyone has an opinion which is fine.  Instead of Merkle leaving, I would like to hear why he thinks it is a problem having a dog run big in open country.  Is it his belief it might be tough to reign them in later?  Is it conservation of energy?  I have usually found that hunters with this opinion have had problems with dogs holding points, or ignoring whoa commands.  However I don't want to assume anything.  He obviously has a lot of experience with bird dogs and could offer up some tidbits for discussion.

[jagermiester]

I hope this isn’t too much of a thread jack but it kinda went weird for a minute there 
My 3 year old GWP likes to range way out always has. I have started to let him when there is no scent. When we get into birds (scent) he works closer and slower on his own. My problem though is the more I let him range out it seems like he gets worked up. I have to call him back and calm him down a little. How do I get him to range out but at a pace that quite honestly isn’t dangerous to him?

[jetjockey]

I hope this isn’t too much of a thread jack but it kinda went weird for a minute there 
My 3 year old GWP likes to range way out always has. I have started to let him when there is no scent. When we get into birds (scent) he works closer and slower on his own. My problem though is the more I let him range out it seems like he gets worked up. I have to call him back and calm him down a little. How do I get him to range out but at a pace that quite honestly isn’t dangerous to him?

When you say dangerous, what do you mean?  One thing I think guys need to understand about big running dogs is #1. They REALLY need a GPS and an E-collar.  #2. The dog really needs to be 100% broke.  Letting a puppy run and build it’s confidence with lots of birds is important, because when you break them, your essentially tearing that confidence down and putting pressure on them.  Once the dog is broke, you build them back up again, and often times they will end up running bigger than before they were broke.  Being broke is very important though.  A dog that’s busting birds left and right at long distances is useless. However, a dog that’s 100% broke will be a huge benefit, even if they accidentally bump birds.  I’ll give you an example.  We hunt scaled quail in HUGE territory.  Scaled quail run more than pheasants IMO, and getting a big covey pointed with a chance at a shot is nearly impossible.  You can get them pointed, but they will flush before your close enough for a shoot.  Here’s where the fun begins though.  Once you get them pointed, and they flush, you go like hell and work them again.  I’ve found that after the second flush, the birds will split up, but typically be within a 50-100 yards of each other.   Scalies hold tight as singles!  So now you have 50-60 wild birds in a small area that hold!  Trust me when I say that is a hell of a lot of fun!   Having a big running dog is a HUGE benefit when hunting desert areas like this, where you literally hunt for miles upon miles, and the scenery never changes.  The walk in area in this picture was 20-30 thousand acres I believe, and all of it held birds. The covey she had pointed was actually a small covey of 10-15 birds.  Small coveys will often hold similarly to the singles.

[jagermiester]

I hope this isn’t too much of a thread jack but it kinda went weird for a minute there 
My 3 year old GWP likes to range way out always has. I have started to let him when there is no scent. When we get into birds (scent) he works closer and slower on his own. My problem though is the more I let him range out it seems like he gets worked up. I have to call him back and calm him down a little. How do I get him to range out but at a pace that quite honestly isn’t dangerous to him?

When you say dangerous, what do you mean?  One thing I think guys need to understand about big running dogs is #1. They REALLY need a GPS and an E-collar.  #2. The dog really needs to be 100% broke.  Letting a puppy run and build it’s confidence with lots of birds is important, because when you break them, your essentially tearing that confidence down and putting pressure on them.  Once the dog is broke, you build them back up again, and often times they will end up running bigger than before they were broke.  Being broke is very important though.  A dog that’s busting birds left and right at long distances is useless. However, a dog that’s 100% broke will be a huge benefit, even if they accidentally bump birds.  I’ll give you an example.  We hunt scaled quail in HUGE territory.  Scaled quail run more than pheasants IMO, and getting a big covey pointed with a chance at a shot is nearly impossible.  You can get them pointed, but they will flush before your close enough for a shoot.  Here’s where the fun begins though.  Once you get them pointed, and they flush, you go like hell and work them again.  I’ve found that after the second flush, the birds will split up, but typically be within a 50-100 yards of each other.   Scalies hold tight as singles!  So now you have 50-60 wild birds in a small area that hold!  Trust me when I say that is a hell of a lot of fun!   Having a big running dog is a HUGE benefit when hunting desert areas like this, where you literally hunt for miles upon miles, and the scenery never changes.  The walk in area in this picture was 20-30 thousand acres I believe, and all of it held birds. The covey she had pointed was actually a small covey of 10-15 birds.  Small coveys will often hold similarly to the singles.

I call it dangerous because I feel that he enjoys the whole thing so much that he gets going super fast and is likely to hurt himself on the dangers of running in chukar country.
This past weekend for example we had a couple miles until we were into where the birds (typically) hold. I let him range and he was moving so fast at times and with his bike tire boots on I saw him fall a couple of times. I eventually took the foot protection off to give him a little more traction. Once we got into where we wanted we had a decision to make. He made it for us with a point 200 yards to our right . He held his point and my son and I each killed a bird.
So it seems to be working minus the break of neck speed he is trying to cover Chukar country in. Honestly I'm not a helicopter parent but I'm a little worried he is going to hurt himself. I kept calling him back in and trying to calm him down. He was having the time of his life though.
Once we were in the birds he was working in close on his own.

[tlbradford]

I hope this isn’t too much of a thread jack but it kinda went weird for a minute there 
My 3 year old GWP likes to range way out always has. I have started to let him when there is no scent. When we get into birds (scent) he works closer and slower on his own. My problem though is the more I let him range out it seems like he gets worked up. I have to call him back and calm him down a little. How do I get him to range out but at a pace that quite honestly isn’t dangerous to him?

When you say dangerous, what do you mean?  One thing I think guys need to understand about big running dogs is #1. They REALLY need a GPS and an E-collar.  #2. The dog really needs to be 100% broke.  Letting a puppy run and build it’s confidence with lots of birds is important, because when you break them, your essentially tearing that confidence down and putting pressure on them.  Once the dog is broke, you build them back up again, and often times they will end up running bigger than before they were broke.  Being broke is very important though.  A dog that’s busting birds left and right at long distances is useless. However, a dog that’s 100% broke will be a huge benefit, even if they accidentally bump birds.  I’ll give you an example.  We hunt scaled quail in HUGE territory.  Scaled quail run more than pheasants IMO, and getting a big covey pointed with a chance at a shot is nearly impossible.  You can get them pointed, but they will flush before your close enough for a shoot.  Here’s where the fun begins though.  Once you get them pointed, and they flush, you go like hell and work them again.  I’ve found that after the second flush, the birds will split up, but typically be within a 50-100 yards of each other.   Scalies hold tight as singles!  So now you have 50-60 wild birds in a small area that hold!  Trust me when I say that is a hell of a lot of fun!   Having a big running dog is a HUGE benefit when hunting desert areas like this, where you literally hunt for miles upon miles, and the scenery never changes.  The walk in area in this picture was 20-30 thousand acres I believe, and all of it held birds. The covey she had pointed was actually a small covey of 10-15 birds.  Small coveys will often hold similarly to the singles.

I call it dangerous because I feel that he enjoys the whole thing so much that he gets going super fast and is likely to hurt himself on the dangers of running in chukar country.
This past weekend for example we had a couple miles until we were into where the birds (typically) hold. I let him range and he was moving so fast at times and with his bike tire boots on I saw him fall a couple of times. I eventually took the foot protection off to give him a little more traction. Once we got into where we wanted we had a decision to make. He made it for us with a point 200 yards to our right . He held his point and my son and I each killed a bird.
So it seems to be working minus the break of neck speed he is trying to cover Chukar country in. Honestly I'm not a helicopter parent but I'm a little worried he is going to hurt himself. I kept calling him back in and trying to calm him down. He was having the time of his life though.
Once we were in the birds he was working in close on his own.

Sounds like he is doing awesome.  Chukar country gets me nervous at times as well.  There is nothing wrong with occasionally bringing him back to you when you get nervous, especially at that age.  You won't dampen his prey drive, you are just reinforcing control that he is to come when called. 

[redandwhitebrit]

I am also a supporter of a tracking collar on my young Brittany. I however am not a Garmin fan and use a SportDog Tek 2.0 collar with great success. I used a Tritronics Upland Special collar for years, until I could no longer keep track of my dog with the beeper on the collar. I no longer could hear it very well to locate the dog. (Old age struck.) Switched to the SportDog system two years ago with great success.

[jagermiester]

What is the cheapest route for a GPS. It seems like the last time I checked it was $600.
I agree that is cheap insurance but I have three kids hunting now and my budget is getting spread pretty thin.

[redandwhitebrit]

It is my humble opinion that cheap and GPS collar do not go together. The Garmin, and SportDog products are similar in price, and features. I believe there are some cheaper dog tracking alternatives that work with your smart phone, but you would need two systems, tracking collar and training collar. I hunted for a number of years with an Upland Special with a beeper, and did fine. Kept the dog fairly close and was able to hear the collar. When I started hunting quail n Arizona three years ago, could no longer keep track of my dog in the tall grass and wide open spaces. Made the jump to tracking collar, and glad I did.

[Fishnfowler]

I'll jump in with an opinion.  Hopefully it is taken as constructive and not seen as criticism.  I've had big running dogs, last was an EP.  He would run right off the map and beyond the ability of the GPS to track him.  I always found him, or someone found him for me.  He would hold a great point and had a great nose.  Thing is, in bird-dense and scent heavy conditions, he would miss far too many birds and would rarely head the direction we needed to get from point A-B.  I know that many people have the benefit of wide-open country without bounds, but I rarely have that pleasure.  For my personal hunting style, a big running dog put fewer birds on the table and I ended up spending a bunch of time running him down rather than hunting.  Now, one may say that this experience was unique to my dog, but as a generalization, it is true.  The phrase "Run-Off-Trial-Dog" wasn't coined for nothing.  Kudos to those whose home ground or terrain allows them to run ground-covering dogs.  In bird-sparse, open country, it is the way to roll.  For those of us who have small covers that reliably hold birds and need a specific approach, that type of dog is generally more work, YMMV.  When I think of managing the collars, and all the times I've had to go the wrong way for several miles, I can't ever see myself getting a big running dog again.  I'm really glad for the OP and his enthusiastic dog, but chasing a dog with a car isn't my idea of a good time.

[jetjockey]

Problem is your dog was just that, a run off dog! Running big and running off are two totally different things. If a dog doesn’t handle for you, it’s useless. A dog can handle at 500-700 yards in open country, and in thick tight cover as well. Those huge running Pointers that compete in American Field All age Horseback trials have to run at Ames for 3 hours on a course that is pretty darn tight to win Nationals.  Not only that, many of those dogs are guided over on the big plantations in South Georgia off foot. My puppy that ran off and had a blast was doing exactly what I want him to do.  Building his confidence and running!  The time will come to put some handle into him, but that time is not now.

Btw.  Run off trial dogs don’t win trials. The good trial dogs handle like a dream.  I’m willing to bet that phrase was coined by someone who has never been to a trial.

[wildweeds]

The big running thing is awesome and an aquired taste, it's nice to not have to roll every stone, I've had several dogs that would point birds  out there 400 to 900 yards and be standing when I got there, it's nice to be able to walk the easy path between 2 ridges and have the dog hunt the tops,and side slopes. As jet suggests a run off doesn't win, if you know what to look for you'll see that big runner throw a look your way to check in and then turn and head toward an objective, that objective may be a fence corner on the ridge or a patch of brush in the rimrocks. Before there was such a thing as a GPS garmin , I had a Marshall Telemetry reciever and collars. In my opinion for recovery the telemetry is  superior . The collar life is in 1000s  of hours before the battery goes dead. The downside is the reciever is bulky, about the size of a pheasant. Mine had point mode collars, so if a dog disappeared I could tell what was going on by just turning the reciever on and listening to the pace of the beep. I have a garmin too, I don't have super big goers anymore, they are 1 to 300 yarders, which would still freak out 95 percent of hunters. For someone who can't afford a garmin the old school telemetry is a great option. It's a cheap saftey belt. I mentioned battery life.... I left a Marshall collar on and put my stuff away in mid december, when I got into the dog bag for vet supplies 6 months later .... it was still running and emitting signal.... powered by AA bateries. Garmin goes ka put at about 3 days or less depending on how it's set.