Huge reduction of special permits

[Pegasus]

If the general season harvest rates don’t show a decline in elk harvested numbers, I don’t know what does. IMO, the special permits are just a trickle down. Someone is not managing our game properly. I don’t think it really has to do with predators, more so, miscalculating how many elk an area can sustain and issuing special permits based on those inaccurate figures

If the bulls are declining at a rapid rate and the cows are not then it is likely not the predators creating the disparity. Big bulls are normally the last to join the lower altitude elk party and since we had a mild winter for most of the winter it can be a possibility that the bull count was flawed because they were still at higher elevations up in the timber and escaped counting. Of course poachers and tribal hunters targeting the bulls is the other possibility.

[SuperX]

I didn't know cougars were spree killers, I've always heard the opposite until now.  So when they spree kill do they still cover every kill and drag them off?

[bearpaw]

Another way to tell if a cougar made an old kill is by the bones that are left. Cougar chew up many of the bones that other carnivores don't. If you find a pile of hair with only the bottom of the leg bones, maybe a few vertebrae, and a partially chewed up skull, it was likely a cougar.

Cougar will kill on a spree, they often do it with sheep. One time a rancher here in NE WA was having cougar problems, the warden finally told the rancher to put his sheep in the barn at night, that first night the cougar went through the window and killed every sheep in the barn, over 20 of them. She only ate off of 1 or 2 of them.

Often times cats will get a chance to kill again when they are laid up near a recent kill. Once they pretty much clean up a kill they will start hunting again, if they don't make a kill they will return to the old kill to chew up a few more bones. I have followed cats back to their old kills countless times when hound hunting. Another thing I learned is that a female will leave her kiittens at a kill and start hunting again, when she makes another kill she goes back and gets the kittens and takes them to the new kill. If the kittens are too small, the female will drag the animal back to the layer where she is safe keeping the kittens. I once found where a 90ish pound female drug an adult cow elk 1/2 to 1 mile back to the layer and kittens. She had used that layer for years as there were old bones from dozens of elk killed over the years around those rocks.

If a campground is in prime winter range and deer wander in there often I can see why there would be a lot of kills in and around a campground.

[Pegasus]

I didn't know cougars were spree killers, I've always heard the opposite until now.  So when they spree kill do they still cover every kill and drag them off?

I have found several recent cougar kills in the same proximity. They were both covered and appeared to have been dead about the same amount of time. Both showed little signs of having been eaten.

[SuperX]

I didn't know cougars were spree killers, I've always heard the opposite until now.  So when they spree kill do they still cover every kill and drag them off?

I have found several recent cougar kills in the same proximity. They were both covered and appeared to have been dead about the same amount of time. Both showed little signs of having been eaten.

wow, so now we can ask if a cougar eats one deer every 10-12 days, how many do they kill and not eat?  Even more reason to manage them aggressively

[JimmyHoffa]

I didn't know cougars were spree killers, I've always heard the opposite until now.  So when they spree kill do they still cover every kill and drag them off?

Just one animal usually gets drug off from what I've seen.  The rest are left laying where they died.  Bobcats do it too, like when they get into a bird pen.  Kill all the ducks or chickens and then only take one to eat.

[huntnfmly]

I didn't know cougars were spree killers, I've always heard the opposite until now.  So when they spree kill do they still cover every kill and drag them off?

Just one animal usually gets drug off from what I've seen.  The rest are left laying where they died.  Bobcats do it too, like when they get into a bird pen.  Kill all the ducks or chickens and then only take one to eat.

I know this might sound like captain obvious talking but it's just the way they are wired.
 They don't just kill to eat it's like that jaguar that got loose in the zoo and killed like 7-8 animals as soon as it got  out before they got it and you know it got fed good from the game keepers .
  What I mean by that is the animals are well fed and I'm sure it did it just because

[KFhunter]

Cats will be cats doesn't it matter if it's a farm cat or a tiger or a mountain lion or any of them.

You should see the Calico Farm cat when I start tipping over hay bales loaded with mice especially oat hay, they just go into a frenzy and 1 cat will kill many many mice, she'll have several in each paw and several in her mouth and keeos swiping at more trying to not let the ones shes got escape so she'll bite them so they cant run off.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[bigmacc]

The kills we have been seeing over the last decade in the Methow have been very obvious for even a novice cougar hunter like myself because of the scratch marks on the ground,  or if fresh enough you can see obvious signs of "a cat" taking hold on the neck or shoulders.  We found over 2 dozen in 1 area last year, we talked with a "cougar guy" we know and he said they kill, drag and bury the kill like a "turd in a sandbox". The ones we came across were partially eaten, mostly from the hind quarters up then left and buried. The rancher/packer we know said that cougars wont eat spoiled meat and when they come back to feed on their kill, if it has "turned" they just go and kill another, hence, 1 per week. Bearpaw will know better on how these things operate but from what I have seen over the last decade or so they are killing machines, maybe not the "thrill killers" that wolves are because they are teaching their young and they hunt in packs and will kill just to teach their young, cougars seem to be just as lethal because they need to kill more often.

[bigmacc]

Fair enough but I would argue that it's fairly irrelevant.  Its 2019 not 1975.  I in no way mean that as an insult or an "old timer" remark but management is never ending and always changing. Even at a 5 year low we still have a robust elk herd in yakima compared to what we had back when hounds were running around.  So if predators have exploded like some have said why havent elk populations continually plummeted? I wanna connect the dots more than anyone but the dots dont line up

 Karl, thank you for "engaging", no insult taken as far as being an "old timer" . I am glad that the area you are hunting is doing well as far as numbers, I can go back a lot farther than "75" but I will tell you this, predators were something you pretty much read about or heard stories about pre 75, then we seen a few more each year and a few more the next year and so on and so on, now depending on the area or part of the state you are hunting it can be as different as night and day as far as "the predator" situation goes, some parts of the state are getting pounded by multiple predators, some may only have cats, some may only have bear, some may have a combination of some and some areas may have them all, for instance the Methow where I spend my time, our deer herd is getting whacked by all 4, bear, cougar, coyote and the wolf. All 4 populations are growing, thriving and killing deer every day.....

[SuperX]

I'm still trying to get my head around the health of our herds and the role of predators in their decline.  I've come to the back-of-the-napkin conclusion that our biggest addressable problem is the cougars. 

Looking at wolves, cougars and man only, here are some rough yearly numbers I've come up with to help me 'get it'.

Based on the 2018 harvest stats, combined deer/elk kills by hunters were ~32,000.

Wolves @ 20 deer a year (WI DNR numbers) for 126 wolves, leaves another ~2500 eaten. 

WDFW estimated 2000 - 2500 cougar in the state back in 2015.  At the same 20 deer/elk a year for cats, they would account for ~40,000 - 50,000 eaten a year.   

All told, we would be seeing ~80,000 deer/elk EATEN per year without considering fawn mortality, predator spree killing, poaching, conflict management, killed but not recovered by hunters, vehicle mortality, death by disease / natural causes, or tribal hunting as factors.

The 2018 harvest report showed 220 cats killed and registered by hunters potentially saving 4500 deer/elk.  Almost all of the areas open for hunting cougars met or exceeded harvest objectives for those areas, meaning there isn't much more we can do to limit the largest source of ungulate mortality without more tags.


I also looked at the 300 GMUs and the quota for them is only 23 cougars on the top end while the herd is struggling so badly that many are leaving the state to elk hunt.  It sure makes you scratch your head.

[Bob33]

I'm still trying to get my head around the health of our herds and the role of predators in their decline.  I've come to the back-of-the-napkin conclusion that our biggest addressable problem is the cougars. 

Looking at wolves, cougars and man only, here are some rough yearly numbers I've come up with to help me 'get it'.

Based on the 2018 harvest stats, combined deer/elk kills by hunters were ~32,000.

Wolves @ 20 deer a year (WI DNR numbers) for 126 wolves, leaves another ~2500 eaten. 

WDFW estimated 2000 - 2500 cougar in the state back in 2015.  At the same 20 deer/elk a year for cats, they would account for ~40,000 - 50,000 eaten a year.   

All told, we would be seeing ~80,000 deer/elk EATEN per year without considering fawn mortality, predator spree killing, poaching, conflict management, killed but not recovered by hunters, vehicle mortality, death by disease / natural causes, or tribal hunting as factors.

The 2018 harvest report showed 220 cats killed and registered by hunters potentially saving 4500 deer/elk.  Almost all of the areas open for hunting cougars met or exceeded harvest objectives for those areas, meaning there isn't much more we can do to limit the largest source of ungulate mortality without more tags.


I also looked at the 300 GMUs and the quota for them is only 23 cougars on the top end while the herd is struggling so badly that many are leaving the state to elk hunt.  It sure makes you scratch your head.

Yes and those numbers are likely conservative. Wolf numbers are almost certainly north of 200, and (adult) cougar numbers are likely closer of 3,000. Add 30,000 black bears and lots of coyotes, and you're possibly looking at predation kill alone of close to 80,000.

[Stein]

Good thing we don't have grizzlies and disease to deal with as well.   

[SuperX]

I'm hunting out of state this year, but if there were tags I might be tempted to buy a big game license here to hunt cougars.

[SuperX]

Good thing we don't have grizzlies and disease to deal with as well.   

LOL! The feds say they are here, but I think the state is still not sure