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Author Topic: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act  (Read 11383 times)

Offline baker5150

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2019, 03:40:30 PM »
didn't someone get sued for using a helicopter to rescue someone recently in a wilderness?
Absolutely not.

You are probably referring to the use of a helicopter to establish a camp in the search for Sam Sayers. None of that occurred in Wilderness, it was in fact allowed and it was a recovery for a corpse not yet found.
People can get sue for whatever they want.

There is an exemption in the Wilderness Act which allows first responders to not abide by the wilderness prohibitions. However, it must be serious, life or death, etc. It can't be so that the 21 year old can ride an ATV out of the wilderness instead of limping around on a twisted ankle or getting carried out.

I believe they can use helicopters for snow pack surveys as well.  Not positive.

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2019, 03:49:57 PM »
This is what I remember

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/lawsuit-challenges-helicopter-use-in-idaho-wilderness-area/
Quote
BOISE, Idaho — Three environmental groups sued the U.S. Forest Service to challenge a decision allowing helicopters to land in a central Idaho wilderness area so state wildlife officials can outfit elk with tracking collars.

Wilderness Watch, Western Watersheds Project and Friends of the Clearwater filed the lawsuit Thursday in U.S. District Court in Idaho. They said the federal agency is violating the Wilderness Act and other environmental laws by allowing helicopters into the rugged Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness.

Sorry, I accidently conflated a couple things together, at least I threw in a ? cause I wasn't sure  :chuckle:

That, and things look like fighting the saving of the Green Mountain lookout and the rescue of the Enchanted Valley cabin in the ONP angers many.

I believe they can use helicopters for snow pack surveys as well.  Not positive.

That again is something that a few have fought and several water districts have done land swaps of inholdings so they can land on their own private land.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2019, 04:25:55 PM »
Wilderness areas allow for no mechanical means of transportation.

 :yeah: This was the intent of Wilderness, no mechanized travel, to allow any type of bike would defeat the whole purpose. I'm not in favor of altering existing wilderness just to satisfy certain users. Equally I'm not in favor of taking multiple use lands away from most users to make more wilderness. There is a good balance of existing wilderness and it should not be diminished!  :twocents:
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline idaho guy

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2019, 05:01:34 PM »
It is OK to ride on horses in a wilderness area but a bicycle is not OK? Seems like horses do more damage than a bicycle does. Looks like the original rules were set up to favor one group over other groups without any scientific facts to back it up. Reality is the less people in a wilderness area no matter how they get there the better the hunting is. I think that is what most people are concerned about. Giving access to bikes will allow more people into the area and thus most hunters already using the wilderness areas see this as more competition and more crowds coming into their favorite wilderness areas. The real question is do we allow more access into the wilderness areas for more people to enjoy or do we restrict the amount of people  by preventing bicycles for access?

I don't believe mountain biking was much of a sport when these rules were written.

I am 100% in favor of keeping it "Heartbeat" only transportation.   Keep it as wild as possible.

"Mountain bikes weren’t originally banned by the Wilderness Act; that breed of bike didn’t actually exist at the time. The act explicitly prohibited motorized transport. A number of groups, including the Sierra Club and Wilderness Society, convinced the U.S. Forest Service to publish a regulation in 1984 explicitly prohibiting mountain bikes in wilderness areas-essentially broadening the prohibition from motorized to mechanized transport. The other government agencies that manage wilderness areas (the BLM, the National Park Service, and the Fish and Wildlife Service) followed suit."

"Most studies, in fact, show that mountain bikes cause about the same amount of erosion as foot traffic and significantly less damage to trails than horseback riders–both groups have largely unfettered access to wilderness areas. "

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/05/a-look-at-the-ban-on-wilderness-mountain-biking/
     


It has nothing to do with trail erosion it’s about keeping wild places wild. You can go back over 100 years in time and they accessed that same country with horses. I don’t ever want to lose that because somebody feels the need to ride a bike. Or anything else we need to leave existing wilderness alone.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2019, 09:54:15 PM »
 :yeah:


Status Quo on wilderness, no new land added, no changes, no reductions in land...leave it the heck alone!   1000 years from now,  same rules!!

Offline stlusn30-06

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2019, 09:43:04 AM »
There's nothing scientific or practical about a wilderness, it's purely an emotional construct.


tree huggers wanted more and more wilderness, then live with the rules.   No bicycles.

bicycles and horses don't mix well, the bikers would take over the existing trails and push equines out


the whole idea of a wilderness is to preserve, adding more sports to it isn't preserving.  If bicycles get added then I want electric assist added too, then gas assist, then motorbikes added too

Aldo Leopold was the person who first presented the idea of Wilderness designation to the Forest Service. Specifically for the Gila in NM. He would likely argue that he had no scientific or practical reasoning for the designation. Apologies for the length of the quote below, but may be helpful to understand the thought process that went behind the Why of Wilderness, and what its importance is beyond what has already been discussed here.

"The most important characteristic of an organism is that capacity for eternal self-renewal known as health.

There are two organisms whose process of self-renewal have been subjected to human interference and control. One of these is man himself (medicine and public health). The other is land (agriculture and conservation).

The effort to control the health of land has not been very successful. It is now generally understood that when soil loses fertility, or washes away faster than it forms, and when water systems exhibit abnormal floods and shortages, the land is sick.

Other derangements are known as facts, but are not yet thought of as symptoms of land sickness. The disappearance of plants and animal species without visible cause, despite efforts   to protect them, and the irruption of others as pests despite efforts to control them, must, in the absence of simpler explanations, be regarded as symptoms of sickness in the land organism. Both are occurring too frequently to be dismissed as normal evolutionary events.

The status of thought on these ailments of the land is reflected in the fact that our treatments for them are still prevailingly local. Thus when a soil loses fertility we pour on fertilizer, or at best alter its tame flora and fauna, without considering the fact that its wild flora and fauna, which built the soil to begin with, may likewise be important to its maintenance. It was recently discovered, for example, that good tobacco crops depend, for some unknown reason, on the preconditioning of the soil by wild ragweed. It does not occur to us that such unexpected chains of dependency may have wide prevalence in nature.

When prairie dogs, ground squirrels, or mice increase to pest levels we poison them, but we do not look beyond the animal to find the cause of the irruption. We assume that animal troubles must have animal causes. The latest scientific evidence points to derangements of the plant community as the real seat of rodent irruptions, but few explorations of this clue are being made.

Many forest plantations are producing one-log or two-log trees on soil which originally grew three-log and four-log trees. Why? Thinking foresters know that the cause probably lies not in the tree, but in the micro-flora of the soil, and that it may take more years to restore the soil flora than it took to destroy it.

Many conservation treatments are obviously superficial. Flood-control dams have no relation to the cause of floods. Check dams and terraces do not touch the cause of erosion. Refuges and hatcheries to maintain the supply of game and fish do not explain why the supply fails to maintain itself.

In general, the trend of the evidence indicates that in land, just as in the human body, the symptoms may lie in one organ and the cause in another. The practices we now call conservation are, to a large extent, local alleviations of biotic pain. They are necessary, but they must not be confused with cures. The art of land doctoring is being practiced with vigor, but the science of land health is yet to be born.

A science of land health needs, first of all, a base datum of normality, a picture of how healthy land maintains itself as an organism.

We have two available norms. One is found where land physiology remains largely normal despite centuries of human occupation. I know of only one such place: north-eastern Europe. It is not likely that we shall fail to study it.

The other and most perfect norm is wilderness. Paleontology offers abundant evidence that wilderness maintained itself for immensely long-periods; that its component species were rarely lost, neither did they get out of hand; that weather and water built soil faster than it was carried away. Wilderness, then, assumes unexpected importance as a laboratory for the study of land-health.

One cannot study the physiology of Montana in the Amazon; each biotic province needs its own wilderness for comparative studies of used and unused land. It is of course too late to salvage more than a lopsided system of wilderness study areas, and most of these remnants are far too small to retain their normality in all respects. Even the National Parks, which run up to a million acres each in size, have not been large enough to retain their natural predators, or to exclude animal diseases carried by livestock. Thus the Yellowstone has lost its wolves and cougars, with the result that elk are ruining flora, particularly on the winter range. At the same time the grizzly bear and the mountain sheep are shrinking, the latter by reason of disease.

While even the largest wilderness areas become partially deranged, it required only a few wild acres for J.E. Weaver to discover why the prairie flora is more drouth-resistant than the agronomic flora which has supplanted it. Weaver found that the prairie species practice ‘team work’ underground by distributing their root systems to cover all levels whereas the species comprising the agronomic rotation over draw one level and neglect another, thus building up cumulative deficits. An important agronomic principle emerged from Weaver’s researches.

Again, it required only a few acres for Togrediak to discover why pines on old fields never achieve the size or wild firmness of pines on uncleared forest soils. In the later case, the roots follow old root channels, and thus strike deeper.

In many cases we literally do not know how good a performance to expect of healthy land unless we have a wild area for comparison with sick ones. Thus, most of the early travelers to the Southwest describe the mountain rivers as originally clear, but a doubt remains, for they may, by accident, have seen them at favorable seasons. Erosion engineers had no base datum until it was discovered that exactly similar rivers in the Sierra Madre of Chihuahua, never grazed or used for fear of Indians, show at their worst a milky hue, not too cloudy for a trout fly. Moss grows to the water’s edge on their banks. Most of the corresponding rivers in Arizona and New Mexico are ribbons of boulders, mossless, soil-less, and all but treeless. The preservation and study of the Sierra Madre wilderness, by an international experiment station, as a norm for the cure of sick land on both sides of the border, would be a good neighbor enterprise well worthy of consideration.

In short all available wild areas, large or small, are likely to have value as norms for land
science. Recreation is not their only, or even their principle utility."
“There are people in my life who sometimes worry about me when I go off into the fields and streams, not realizing that the country is a calm, gracious, forgiving place and that the real dangers are found in the civilization you have to pass through to get there." - Gierach

Offline 2MANY

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2019, 10:49:29 AM »
Too many people and not enough real estate.

Offline avidnwoutdoorsman

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2019, 11:01:54 AM »
Too many people and not enough real estate.

Have you been or lived out east or south? We have so much public land here in Washington it's incredible. Sure nothing like a few of these other western states but I would say we are in the top 10 of the country for acres of public land.... I was off for total acreage but when I looked it up and we are number 12 at 31.7% or 2 acres/person.... not everyone hunts. Texas is 1.0% or 0.1 acre/person and number 2 (excluding Alaska) is Wyoming at 50.5% or 55.7acres/person. 

Now is it difficult to access due to terrain? Sure, but that's why we live in WA and similar to what you will experience in the leading states of public land open to hunting and where the wilderness preservation still matter.

https://www.backcountrychronicles.com/public-hunting-land/
Keep Calm Gobble On

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Offline 2MANY

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2019, 11:05:35 AM »
I understand.
I was simply pointing out the obvious.

North America's population is growing at an incredible rate.
Real estate is not.

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2019, 11:34:52 AM »
North America's population is growing at an incredible rate.

Source?

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2019, 11:37:14 AM »
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2002rank.html

Mexico # 103 w/ 1.12% growth
USA  #129 w/0.81%
Can #141 w/ 0.73%


Offline 2MANY

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2019, 11:37:23 AM »
Me.

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2019, 11:43:08 AM »
Me.

I would vet your source a little more

Offline 2MANY

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Re: Human-Powered Travel in Wilderness Areas Act
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2019, 11:45:36 AM »
No need.

The more I talk the more I believe.

 


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