WDFW news release

[ThePascoKid]

Yeah there is no way they could ever allow that, how could they ever differentiate between a poacher who shot an animal with the pistol in the first place, and the guy that just finished it off after he stuck it with an arrow.  My main point with this, is CWP holders aren't more honest law abiding citizens than none CWP holders, they can just as easily be a poacher.

[Kain]

They have to draw the line in the sand with regards to hunting weaponry. I agree with the rule of not permitting people to "finish off" critters with a weapon that is not legal for the season at hand. In this case something like a pistol in the archery season for example. It would otherwise leave the playing field open for abusing the system and poaching out of season to spread.

+1 on that.  To much room for abuse, but I guess that is why they dont want us to have a handgun in the first place.  Just practice as much as you can to make sure there is very little chance of wounding an animal in the first place.  If you can finish it off with a pistol you can do it with a bow.

[cascademountainhunter]

thanks for posting that i was wondering about some of that stuff

[shanevg]

I've never understood why so many hunters were complaining about this rule until I read through this entire forum.  Now it makes sense to me and makes me quite mad.  I drafted the following letter to WDFW and sent it to the listed contacts (basically anyone at WDFW to who this might be of some relevance).  Hopefully we will see some changes.  All you need to do is copy and paste letter and contacts to make your voice heard.   Integrated a number of your comments from this thread, I am not taking credit for everything in the letter.

commission@dfw.wa.gov, <wildthing@dfw.wa.gov>, director@dfw.wa.gov, turcocmt@dfw.wa.gov, TeamSpokane@dfw.wa.gov, TeamEphrata@dfw.wa.gov , TeamYakima@dfw.wa.gov, TeamMillCreek@dfw.wa.gov , TeamVancouver@dfw.wa.gov, TeamMontesano@dfw.wa.gov

I was reading through the recent press release regarding the rule changes to carrying a handgun during archery and muzzleloader season.  According to the news release:

"Hunting equipment: Hunters using muzzleloaders or archery equipment will be allowed to carry a handgun for personal protection if they have a concealed pistol permit. Hunters may also use black powder pistols to hunt during muzzleloader seasons."


This new rule is in direct violation to the Washington State law established by the state Legislature RCW 9.41.060 which provides exceptions to Washington State law 9.41.050 (carrying firearms restrictions).  RCW 9.41.050 states that:

"(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol." 


RCW 9.41.060 provides the exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.  Specifically it says that:

"The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 (carry, including concealed) shall not apply to...
 ...Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area."


I do not understand how WDFW can enact a hunting regulation that directly contradicts the laws established by the Washington State Legislature.  To demonstrate what this new regulation enables imagine the following scenario: Four folks out enjoying the woods on 1 Sept.  They meet at a trail crossing.  One guy is just hiking, he has a loaded handgun in his backpack, one guy is riding his mule and has a loaded handgun in a saddle bag, one guy was fishing a mountain lake and has a loaded handgun concealed by his jacket and one guy is bowhunting and had his handgun in a holster in plain view.  None of them have a CWP.  Only one will be in violation?  The bowhunter.

Obviously, the new regulation put in place by the WDFW is either misinformed or misguided in its purpose.  No rights need to be offered to muzzleloaders or archery hunters to "allow" them to carry handguns by the WDFW since those rights are already given by the State of Washington.  Furthermore, WDFW's "granted rights" in fact put limitations on the ability for a hunter to carry a firearm by requiring them to obtain a concealed pistol permit. 

Please reconsider the establishment of this regulation and remove it from the forthcoming hunting regulations.  If it is too late for that to happen (as the regulations are to be released by April 20) please send out an email to all hunters that inform them of the change of such a rule.

[Bofire]

 :)There is no contradiction, the law covers two different situations, "carrying concealed, while camping etc"

All laws are subject to a criteria. Because there so many situations to try to cover in a real life, so the default is: The most "specific" law to any situation and the most "restrictive" law. So in general you must have a permit to carry a loaded handgun concealed but in the specific case of "outdoor activities"etc, you can carry one.
There are many laws like this.

I am taking no side in this debate about archery or muzzle loader hunting. just trying to help you understand.

[Machias]

:)There is no contradiction, the law covers two different situations, "carrying concealed, while camping etc"

All laws are subject to a criteria. Because there so many situations to try to cover in a real life, so the default is: The most "specific" law to any situation and the most "restrictive" law. So in general you must have a permit to carry a loaded handgun concealed but in the specific case of "outdoor activities"etc, you can carry one.
There are many laws like this.

I am taking no side in this debate about archery or muzzle loader hunting. just trying to help you understand.

How about if your openly carrying, not concealed?  That is the part that is wrong.

[Kain]

Right on for writing a letter.  I didnt really understand what Bofire meant but I dont understand a lot of thing.    I think you got the point across that the new regulation limits the existing rights of certain hunters.  

Bofire and everyone else that hasnt decided, you have the right to not take a side on this and you dont have to explain yourself to me or anybody.  But I would ask that you consider siding against more restrictions against any hunter group.  If this restriction/requirement was against all hunter groups I think many more people would be upset about it.  It is important to make sure WDFW knows that creating regulations that have nothing to do with game management or hunter and public safety will not be taken lightly.  I can see exceptions to this in regards to things like broad head design, arrow weight, bullet caliber, and so on.  But to require archers and MZL hunters to have a CWP to even carry openly, when no other hunter group or even outdoor user group, is required to is not one of them.

[Kain]

A duck hunter is walking back to his truck after a morning of hunting.  He has revolver in a holster on his hip.  There is a game warden waiting for him.  He checks his license and tags.  Everything is in order.  The officer then asks him for his CWP.
   The duck hunter asks “why do you need to see that?”
   The warden replies “for the pistol at your side.”
   “But it is not concealed.”
   “Hunting regulations require you to have a CWP to carry a handgun” says the officer.
   The hunter who knows the state law replies “I am not required to have a CWP to carry openly and state law also allows me to carry concealed while hunting.”
   The warden says “WDFW can make any rule they want, regardless of the state legislature or the US constitution.  I’m going to have to write you a ticket.”
   “Well I’m going to have to get a lawyer.”  Says the hunter and takes his ticket.

[ThePascoKid]

Here's  something I hadn't thought of, if you are modern rifle hunting and carrying a pistol does your pistol have to be legal to hunt big game in WA in order for you not to have a CWP, or can you carry a .380 without a CWP and shoot an animal in the head to finish it off.  I see no difference the small caliber wouldn't' be legal.  It would be no different from an archer or ML shooting an animal in the head to finish it with a pistol.
Just a thought.

[Kain]

As long as the handgun met the minimum requirements for hunting you could shoot the animal.  If it did not you could still carry it just not shoot an animal with it.  You can legally carry any handgun without a CWP concealed or not.

1. Modern Firearm Regulations
R ifles: Big game, except cougar, must be
hunted with a minimum of 24 caliber (6mm)
centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with
22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are
not legal for big game.
Handguns: Big game, except cougar, may
be hunted with handguns with a minimum
barrel length of 4 inches per manufacturers
specification, and fire a minimum 24 caliber
centerfire cartridge. Cougar may be hunted
with 22 caliber centerfire handgun. Rimfire
handguns are not legal for big game.
Shotguns: Deer, bear, and cougar may be
hunted with 20 gauge to 10 gauge shotguns
shooting slugs or #1 or larger buckshot.
Other big game may be hunted with a 10 or
12 gauge shotgun using slugs.

Page 68 of the regs has all the restricted hunting methods.  It has no restrictions on carrying any handguns.

[Bofire]

 :)Kain, I did not say that I didn't have an opinion, what I meant was, I am not entering into this argument in this location. Machias, I was not debating right or wrong. I was trying to explain a often misunderstood "way" of law.
Kinda like overloaded trucks are illegal, except with an overload permit! or its illegal to shoot cow elk, except with a permit, "most specific". or its illegal to shoot a liberal, unless they attack you! 
I dont think a permit of any kind should be required to carry in any manner, is my opinion. Too bad my opinion dont mean squat.
Carl

[billythekidrock]

This came up in the last commission meeting and essentially it boils down to this: by purchasing a hunting license you agree to follow the game laws. If the game laws state you need a CWP during hunting season then you "agreed" to that by purchasing a hunting license.

[stumprat]

Four folks out enjoying the woods on 1 Sept.  They meet at a trail crossing.  One guy is just hiking, he has a loaded handgun in his backpack, one guy is riding his mule and has a loaded handgun in a saddle bag, one guy was fishing a mountain lake and has a loaded handgun concealed by his jacket and one guy is bowhunting and had his handgun in a holster in plain view.  None of them have a CWP.  Only one will be in violation?  The bowhunter.  Makes NO sense what so ever.

This is how I see it.

[Kain]

:)Kain, I did not say that I didn't have an opinion, what I meant was, I am not entering into this argument in this location. Machias, I was not debating right or wrong. I was trying to explain a often misunderstood "way" of law.
Kinda like overloaded trucks are illegal, except with an overload permit! or its illegal to shoot cow elk, except with a permit, "most specific". or its illegal to shoot a liberal, unless they attack you! 
I dont think a permit of any kind should be required to carry in any manner, is my opinion. Too bad my opinion dont mean squat.
Carl

Just a friendly plea from me I dont want to argue with anyone.   

[Machias]

This came up in the last commission meeting and essentially it boils down to this: by purchasing a hunting license you agree to follow the game laws. If the game laws state you need a CWP during hunting season then you "agreed" to that by purchasing a hunting license.

And that along with a few other reasons is why I am done buying a hunting license in WA.  I imagine eventually I will run out of places to run to....hopefully by then I'll be too old to care anymore.