New member post and a question

[Wahoo]

Just wanted to say hi as this is my first post. I have been lurking for around a month and must say this is by far the best Washington State hunting forum I have found. Great site and good job to those who are running it.

Now my question. As I am reading all the posts and specifically the ones where the hunter has a east side branched elk tag or a late season mule tag it raises a question within me. I now have 11 Elk points and 10 deer points. Am I as unlucky as I think I am or is there a lot of people in my situation and we just have to wait our turns.

Just curious if anybody has any facts so I can either be more superstitious come draw time or just relax and realize I am not alone.

Thanks,
Wahoo

[hogsniper]

i dont have as many as u but i do have 9 elk, 9 deer, 9 moose....soo i am keepin my fingers crossed so one day i get to hunt right where i want...good luck tho...Justin

[jackelope]

you're not alone...just ask polarbear 

[Slider]

Wahoo when you apply for the draws do you select 4 choices? If not thats what you are doing wrong!!! People draw late Achery tags with 0 points!!! If so your just unlucky!!! Good Luck next year!!!

[jackelope]

what hunts are you putting on for?

[Moosehunt]

Unlucky.....no....just a product of a poor draw system.  It seems as if quite a few of our fellow hunters have the same misconception of the current permit system. 

Question back to you and everyone else....how many people truly think the draw system is 'weighted?' 

It's not a weighted system.  It's a lottery system.  In order to play you must purchase your chance.  You just get more chances in the bucket.  Someone with zero coming in and you with 9 points....that's 81:1 odds in your favor.  But guess what, the person with 0 points got drawn.  Not weighted at all, just an open lottery with odds pushed in your favor.  There are no 'turns' to be waiting with this flawed system.

[Wahoo]

Thanks everybody for your replies so far. As to what I am applying for every year I put in for 2 Eastside muzzleloader any bull permits followed with 2 late season antlerless AHE hunts. With all my points I have been lucky with the late season antlerless AHE hunts (which are awesome because they don't mess with my points) but would trade those hunts in a second to be able to chase a big bull on the Eastside. For deer I am not as disappointed about not drawing as I do put four hunts down but they are all late season mulie hunts which have low odds to begin with.

[Moosehunt]

How would you like this.......permit draw completed.....drawn for bull moose...results not validated, yet published online....WDFW realizes they made mistake and did not calculate bonus points.....online results removed, print screen made showing draw results....redraw held, not drawn for anything.  Happened to a friend of mine.

[jackelope]

moosehunt...it happened to more than just a friend of yours.

you really don't like the draw system. what type system would you rather have?

[Moosehunt]

I think we need to move to a truly weighted system.  1 point more than someone else and you get picked first.  I believe most of the western states operate under this system.  I think it rewards longevity.  It really becomes a political issue more than a management issue.  $'s drive the department.  As long as money continues to flow in, changes will not be made.  Why is it that WA holds the permit drawing so late in the year?  It's not because the bonus system is antiquated and hard to administer....it's because of the dollars brought in during the application period.

[boneaddict]

Not a good system once you are drawn.  As the numbers increase every year and more people have more points.  At least with this system you have luck.  There, you have none, you just get to predict possibly when you will get to hunt again.

Moose, in Washington, I drew with 3 points.  I now have 6 I believe in Wyoming.  A couple years ago that would have been enough to be drawn.  Now its anywhere from 9-12.  When I reach 9, it will be 15.  that might be as well for oince in a lifetime, but not real bright for deer or elk.  When you r child becomes 14, an age I puicked as an average for some kiddies that want to hunt.  He starts buying points.  Now its at 12 min to draw.  that means they don't even have a shot for 12 years.  When they reach 12, its now 20 some.  Get my point!

[jackelope]

if alls i wanted to do was put in for hunts and never get drawn, i'll just start putting in in utah.
i like the so-so odds i have of drawing a tag some time in my lifetime, and where i'm at points-wise...i'll need that.

[Moosehunt]

Point well taken (pardon the pun).  I still believe the system is flawed.  Should it be a combination of the two.....maybe benchmark the lottery, meaning set the threshold at 3 or 4 or 5, pay over time to play in the lottery.  Put in for a period of time and then become part of the lottery??  There will always be an argument between those that draw and those that don't.   I am a don't this year.  6 family members, all in for permits, some with high point totals, 2 of which are disabled, and zippo in the draw.   Don't like those odds at all.  Not complaining at all but I have to question it.  How can I be sure that I was included in the drawing, points administered correctly, results posted correctly?  Should the bonus point system be eliminated and only those that apply the year before get an extra chance?  I am just not confident in the WDFW to get it right.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I do not think any answer will be completely correct, or fair.
We all think our way is the best and want others to agree with us.
I would like to see it go to 1-2 choices for permits. that would help.
I would like to see people have to pay the whole cost up front for the special big game tags (moose, sheep, and goat). I think the points help, at least i have a chance to draw.
We put in for colorado and have to wait 5 years to hunt where we want to.

I did not like the way the drawing was run this year.

[boneaddict]

I think the bonus point system should be thrown out the window.  Its all about the greenback.  New Mexico and Idaho do not have it.  Guess what, applied for the first time in each and was drawn.  A moose tag in Idaho, and one of the most sought after elk tags in the world.  Arizona has the point system...guess what, I will never draw the Kiabab.  You have to buy theri license every year to get a point, 20 points later...no draw.  Whats 20 x 200 bucks.  Yep, all abou the green.  Back to Idaho.....first year for my Dad to apply, moose tag drawn.  What else does Idaho do to keep draw odds within reason.   Money up front, but you can only apply for one controlled tag.  If you want moose, you don't get to apply for elk or deer.  New Mexico is open for all, but EVERYONE HAS AN EQUAL CHANCE EVERY YEAR.   These bonus point systems are gearing up to keep people from only apply once in their lives.  Once they finally get drawn, they will never draw again.  It also limits youngin's from getting a lifetime draw.

Colorado describes the kind of draw you are talking about, for at least moose.  You essentially have to apply three years before even considered for a moose tag.  Once you have those 3 points, then you have the same chance as everyone else. 

[actionshooter]

I gave up on applying for tags in Utah because of the scenerio bone posted. As the years pass you need more points. Its like a spaniel chasing its tail, it aint got a chance of catching it. If Nevada is the same as it used to be, the liscense cost a $100 when you put in for the special tags and if you don't draw (and you won't until you have enough points), the only way to gain points is to "donate" the $100. Every year $100 = 1 point.

 Washington isn't perfect but It could be worse.

[jackelope]

pretty much exactly what i was getting at too.
it is so much more difficult in other states to draw tags than it is here, granted there is better hunting, but it ain't all that bad here IMO. now if they could get the draw done without having to do it 12 times, and maybe a little earlier in they year, then we'd be living

[WAcoueshunter]

I agree with Jackelope in that I think our system is actually fairly good.  You've always got a chance, which encourages people to buy tags and keep hunting.  But the guys with more points should be drawing the bulk of the tags with the exponential draw odds.  There's a pro and con to each state's system, but I think our state strikes a fairly good balance. 

The states with a straight seniority system will have a HUGE problem in the coming years because youngsters will never be able to catch up.  The last thing anybody should want is to discourage the next generation from hunting.  Case in point...Arizona has a hybrid system: 1 point = 1 number in the hat, 8 points = 8 numbers, etc.  But they also have a "max" points deal where the guys with the highest points automatically get drawn.  This year max points for deer and elk were in the 15 - 17 range I believe.  Soooo, each year the NR guys with max points for deer all take the Kaibab and Strip tags and leave basically no NR tags in these units for guys with less than max points.  Unless guys with 12-14 points apply for other units (which is unlikely), guys starting now will not catch up in their lifetime and will never have a chance at hunting the Kaibab or Strip.  That sucks.  If you've got 8 points, you'll never draw a primo tag, and you've only got 8x the draw odds of a newbie for any other unit.  At least our system gives you 64x.

Like Bone, I've had good luck with New Mexico and their no point system.  But a system like that would just make the polarbear problem that much more pronounced.  You could have guys that are unlucky forever.  At least here, eventually they'll have a ridiculous amount of numbers in the draw, significantly shifting the odds in their favor. 

[DHall]

I'm new to this site and enjoying it. I just moved to Washington from Arizona where they have the draw system. The way it works there would work here for everyone including the conservation effort.

Everyone (and it can be a group) puts in for a GMU. If not drawn than you or each person in the group gets a bonus point for next yr. Once drawn all points are gone and you start over again. The chances of getting drawn depend on which GMU you put in for. Some are easier to draw than others.

For example, my first year I put in I was drawn for a bull tag in unit 10 (Flagstaff area). My buddy, who had 8 bonus points, put in for a different area which had bigger bulls and didn't get drawn.

As far as out-of-staters, Az only drew 10% of those for hunting opportunities.

Point is, the draw system can work. It's just a matter of those in power going that direction.

[Opportunist]

I apply in all of the states WA, ID, OR, AZ, NM, CO, WY and UT. I like Oregon's system the best; they draw out 75% of the tags and are given to hunters with the most points, 25 % are *censored*house draw, so you at least have a shot each year and a guarantee to draw out down the road. You basicly have only one hunt choice since they draw out everyones first choice first then they look at second choice hunts which have to be undersubscribed (100 tags, 80 applicants) since that is all that is left (less desirable hunts) It would be a relative easy system to transfer to but this state would screw it up.

[NRA4LIFE]

I have been putting in for a GMU 346 cow permit for my first choice for 4 years running now and have yet to draw.  Some people, like me it seems, are just unlucky.  I am in a similar situation as other posters in CO.  I started putting in for an elk draw in 1992 when you needed 7-8 to draw.  Here I sit in 2007 with 16 points now and you need 20-21 to draw.  I may never get there.  It sucks that you need to have a drawing at all for resident elk or deer.  That just seems ridiculous to me (coming from the Midwest).  At least in MT, I can draw every other year or better and actually SEE a deer.

[boneaddict]

Year four going to Montana drawing and coming up empty handed.  Their point system is probably about to tank their draws.

[robodad]

Just want to chime in and piss you folks off a little, No I am kidding !!

I have hunted deer and elk with two friends for the last several years and this is how the draws went.

Me: Grayback late season deer 2003 "unfilled",
Nile bull tag 2003 "unfilled",
Bethel cow tag 2005 "filled",
East Okanogan antlerless 2007 "filled with a three point",
Winston ML cow tag "unfilled so far, still trying"

Buddy #1: Peaches Ridge any bull 2003 archery "unfilled",
Peaches Ridge any bull archery 2005 "unfilled",
Mica peak second doe tag 2005 "unfilled", (05 regular tag unfilled)
Peaches Ridge any bull Rifle 2007 "unfilled"

Buddy #2: Peaches ridge archery 2006 "unfilled
East Okanogan antlerless rifle 2006 "filled"
East Okanogan antlerless rifle 2007 "filled"

So I guess I must hunt with the luckiest, most unsuccessful group around.

I really don't know what to say about our draw system except that we seem to get drawn for something almost every year with very few points, so I really can't tell you what could be done to make it better. I kinda like it the way it is !!

Allen...