When do north cascade blacktails rut?

[7mmfan]

Could certainly be possible.

[skagitsteel]

I've been thinking quite a bit lately about the later rut timing in the higher elevations as well. Now, don't laugh at me, but I have my own theory on why it might be just a fuzz later. If you are up thousands of feet higher, the earth curvature comes into play. In other words, the site line toward the horizon, where the daylight emanates. The sunlight hits the high areas just a tad longer, which might be enough to lengthen the photo period just enough to make those deer up higher generally lag just behind the lowland deer. So, it would not be because of elevation itself, but rather how that significant increase in elevation interacts with the amount of light. 

I think its just the deer's way of adapting, late fawn drop is much better for survival at higher elevations/ colder climates. Look at Montana deer, colder climate and they certainly rut later than WA deer.  Certainly there are exceptions to this but overall it's been my experience and has proven to be pretty consistent most years

[Pacific Ghost]

Deer are smart, but not sure they are quite that smart. Seems it would be easier to head for lower elevation to survive harsh conditions and find food for their fawns, rather than somehow deciding their breeding cycle to coincide with more ideal conditions later on. This brings me to an observation/question though. We have 9 hours and 48 minutes of daylight today where I live, and the peak rut for blacktail will happen in the coming days/weeks. There are only 8 hours and 38 minutes of light in Kodiak AK today. Does the Sitka deer rut generally occur at the same time as here, even though there is 70 minutes less light available there? If everything is truly only photo period based, the Sitka deer peak rut would already have happened, or they have a shorter photo period trigger to begin with.

[msg]

My experience in the last 40  plus years of hunting is that lowland deer and elk rut earlier than higher elevation  deer and elk because that is what works the best for fawn and calf survival. NW Oregon elk are rutting in the August bow season but not until very late September and early October at Mt Adams. Grouse season in September you could see incredible stuff with elk rutting  at St Helens. Halloween day was magic for many years at not only my house on the outskirts of Kelso for blacktails. Also the lowland units west of Longview. Closer to St Helens and other higher elevation areas late buck seemed to be the time. Of course there are always exceptions because of females that do not get bred. I believe mother nature figured this out to ensure the best chance of survival !

[fishnfur]

Deer are smart, but not sure they are quite that smart. Seems it would be easier to head for lower elevation to survive harsh conditions and find food for their fawns, rather than somehow deciding their breeding cycle to coincide with more ideal conditions later on. This brings me to an observation/question though. We have 9 hours and 48 minutes of daylight today where I live, and the peak rut for blacktail will happen in the coming days/weeks. There are only 8 hours and 38 minutes of light in Kodiak AK today. Does the Sitka deer rut generally occur at the same time as here, even though there is 70 minutes less light available there? If everything is truly only photo period based, the Sitka deer peak rut would already have happened, or they have a shorter photo period trigger to begin with.

f

I like that question.  I have no answer to it, but it is a heck of a question in regards to the topic at hand.  I could Google it and read a bit, but I'm betting someone here knows the answer. 
   My instinctive guess would be that they have adapted to that environment so that a shorter photo period that initiates the onset of estrus, one which roughly coincides with the dates seen in lowland WA and BC, (even though the daylight hours are significantly less there at that time).   Having lived in Adak AK for a year (even though there are no S. BTs there)  I can tell you that the severity of the winter is not a heck of a lot different (or almost identical except for the wind) than that in the Puget Trough - I would expect that early June is still the peak of fawning for Sitka Blacktail, which would ensure the fawns have enough time to put on body weight and fat reserves to survive their first winter.  Assuming the fawn drop dates are the same, I expect that the peak of the rut is similar as well. 

Edit - I couldn't resist.  Google says:  The breeding season (or rut) peaks during late November. Breeding bucks spend little time foraging and by late November have used up much of their fat reserve. Does, however, generally enter December in prime condition.

Sounds like up to a couple weeks later. 

[Pacific Ghost]

One thing I am not understanding is why a later fawn drop would be better for survival. The later they drop, the later they are born, the less hardie they are at the onset of their first winter when they are half a year old. Why is this better? If deer can truly "adapt" to more preferable conditions for survival, then why wouldn't the harsher winter area deer be dropping sooner, so the fawns would be stronger by their first winter? Not sure I'm following the logic.

[fishnfur]

The opposite end of that spectrum is that if they are born early, wet cold weather in early May can kill a newborn fawn as easy or even faster than a cold/wet winter.  There is no right answer and deer work both ends of the spectrum (on either side of the peak fawning period) which tends to ensure that at least some of the year's fawns will survive.

Here's more on S. BTs - https://sitkablacktail.org/deer-biology

[7mmfan]

One thing I am not understanding is why a later fawn drop would be better for survival. The later they drop, the later they are born, the less hardie they are at the onset of their first winter when they are half a year old. Why is this better? If deer can truly "adapt" to more preferable conditions for survival, then why wouldn't the harsher winter area deer be dropping sooner, so the fawns would be stronger by their first winter? Not sure I'm following the logic.

Because spring comes on later at higher elevations. Cloudy and 55 at 500' can be rain and 35 at 4000'. They just need a little more time for conditions to be survivable at those elevations.

[fishnfur]

Exactly.  According to Eric Holman, the WDFW Biologist that manages the BT deer studies, that cold rain kills a lot of fawns, even 9 months after they are born.

[blackveltbowhunter]

Good discussion.

Mom has to be high ( possibly highest) in nature's biology chart. If mama has a tough time making it to fair weather, the fawn has zero chance of survival and you likely lose two. Nobody wins if mom doesn't give birth healthy.

[Pacific Ghost]

I thought about the more severe weather at higher elevation affecting fawns in early spring, but that doesn't mean the does and fawns have to be up that high. They could be down lower where possible. Also, some does don't get bred until the second or third cycle, which makes it even worse for those younger fawns that are born on that side of the spectrum, closer to winter. I just don't buy the idea that the deer are analyzing what the best odds are each year of dropping early vs late, and adapting, and really having much to do with the logic of timing. I believe it all happens fairly randomly within a range that was set forth by a brilliant creator, but that is a whole separate conversation.

[fishnfur]

Well you can't argue a lot with your last statement, though nobody is suggesting that the deer get to choose when they conceive, and to a certain extent, the exact date of estrus and conception may be very random (within some normal period of time) in a population, and it is well documented that unfavorable weather conditions can extend the breeding season outside the norms.  Right or wrong, I believe many individual animals likely follow a repeating pattern year after year, even if it does not exactly match the majority of the population.  So one doe may tend to have earlier estrus year after year and drop fawns a little earlier than the general population. 

As you state, sometimes it takes several cycles for the doe to get preggers.  The resulting late-born fawn does indeed have a lower chance of survival than fawns born earlier in the summer, and if weather conditions don't cooperate, that fawn stands a higher chance of dying before it is old enough to breed.  That little twist of fate, if it was caused by some genetic or biological problem of the mother, reduces the chance that the fawn can pass on it's potentially poor set of genes it got from it's mother/father and it is removed from the gene pool (if it dies due to the condition or timing of birth), thereby keeping the best genetically adapted deer breeding and producing healthy normal fawns.  As in humans, some couples are unable to conceive children (without surrogate or medical procedures).  That effectively removes their genes from the human gene pool (assuming they are faithful, etc.).   

Mother nature loves to experiment.  Environmental conditions change over the eons and with those changes comes changes in temperature, rainfall and fauna/flora, etc.  Some animals are no longer well suited to the changes in their range and tend to die out or perhaps develop migration patterns as conditions warrant.  Some of the changes may give one species an advantage over it's competition (for available resources) allowing that species to flourish (population expands) while the other populations suffer.  When a species (such as deer) expand  breeding and birthing periods, the animals born early or late may be in a better position to take advantage of the changed environment.  Not only does this ensure that some of the young animals will survive some radical environmental change, but those animals tend to be healthier and better breeding stock that animals born at a less opportune time.   

A great example of changes in timing of the rut show up in WT deer.  Most Northern WT stock rut sometime around Thanksgiving, but down south in some of the gulf states, WT rut runs into February and perhaps beyond.  This is not by chance.  Somehow those populations of deer have adapted to some condition that gives their offspring a breeding advantage over WTs rutting at more "normal" times, and over time, the period of the rut changed so that their offspring were better positioned to take advantage of that condition.

I'm not saying that's all entirely correct, but it's my best explanation of my understanding of the situation.   Somehow I got interested in population genetics a couple years ago and periodically delve into the goodies that the wildlife geneticists discuss.  Obviously, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and there are many, many factors that affect why, when, how populations of animals change over time, and I am ill equipped to discuss them at any length without including inaccuracies. 

Sorry we hijacked the thread.  Back to that buck that's soon to die in the N. Cascades...

[Elkfun12]

He sent me this last night. Not the best picture. Said his camera on took 12 pictures. But bait is gone.

[Skyvalhunter]

Nocturnal as is the ones in my area so far.

[fishnfur]

Definitely a shooter.  I would imagine with this weather and at this time of the season, he's available at least some of the time during daylight hours, even if that is only when the doe he is tending is up and feeding.  Interested to see how his hunt turns out.