Hunters need to make a Statement

[huntnnw]

I don't agree that everyone should be able to hunt all seasons. It's already too crowded as it is, that would only make it worse, and it's the reason in the first place many years ago that they went to a choose your weapon type system. However I do agree people should try to cut back as much as they possibly can on how many licenses and applications you purchase.

So explain to me then. Why do people choose to spend money in other states where they can hunt with their choice of several weapons. I believe that you are one who does this. I also get that there are different species you can hunt. But other than speed goats we have pretty much the same choices.

not very many western states allow multiple weapon season hunting and if they do it usually involves an additional fee.

Fact is MS (deer specifically) puts a lot of additional strain on a limited resource. Ive been shouting for years that this state needs to tighten up deer hunting for the sake of our mule deer. We are THE ONLY western state with completely wide open and unbridled deer hunting and we have embarrassingly low deer numbers. We have all screamed "follow the science" in recent months due to the spring bear debacle but we fall silent on mule deer when following the science means less opportunity. 

As for hitting wdfw in the wallet, that does nothing more than feeding into exactly what Inslee and his anti's want. Their goal is NO HUNTING so if everyone stops participating they have achieved their goal. Its quite literally exactly what they want. License sales are a mere drop in the bucket that is WA states annual budget. They'll reallocate some funds to pay for blue bird boxes and wolves and they won't give hunting a second thought.

Don't we have fewer overall hunters than the heydays of the early 90's?   

Too many hunters isn't the problem, I rarely bump into them.  The problem is hunters being corralled in smaller spaces due to road closures and dwindling access, and less game due to lack of predator management.

where in my statements did I claim we have more hunters now than in the 90's and how is that stat relevant to current game populations, usable habitat, and fixing the issues at hand?

I believe the focus is wrong, we need to focus on increasing access to timberlands, we need USFS,DNR etc to focus on opening closed roads, and we need to focus on predator management rather than reducing hunters even more.   We're already a 3% minority and your ideas will further reduce that, why have hunting at all for a 1 or 2% minority that squabble about there being too many hunters?   Shoot yourself in the foot for better hunting and less pressure in a couple years?

You're so off base with what I said. You keep pointing out hunter numbers and over crowding.  Where did I say a single thing about over crowding or hunter numbers?  The simple truth is mule deer numbers continue to plummet and we just keep banging away. Sure up in your neck of the woods bears and cats are pretty out of control, but there are large areas of this state with no bears and very few cats yet MD numbers continue to plummet. USABLE habitat continues to shrink by the day but we continue to sell unlimited tags, multi season permits by the hundreds, damage tags for doe's and piles of doe tags in the draws. We can shoot two bears, hunt coyotes year round, and cats almost year round but very few actually do. So whats the realistic answer to help get mule deer back on their feet? Open more roads to increase access to kill more deer? Continue to hunt them unrestricted? Continue killing females? WASHINGTON IS THE ONLY WESTERN STATE WITH UNRESTRICTED MULE DEER HUNTING. How insane is that!?!!

Also your 2% draw odds with 15 points is dishonest and you know it. If it was a statewide draw there would be thousands of tags not dozens like there currently is.

Listen, we wiped all predators from the landscape at the turn of the century when the population of the US was 1/3 of what it was. Of course we had an ungulate boom (which I'd give almost anything to have witnessed) but that was man made, not natural. If we want these species for our children and our grandchildren to be able to hunt we gotta check some selfishness at the door. Yeah we need to kill predators, but we more importantly gotta start preserving habitat. Look to Wyoming and what that state is doing with mule deer migration corridor preservation and its effect on populations.

We can keep screaming predators at the top of our lungs but guess what folks, you aren't gonna bait bears in WA in your lifetime. You're not gonna run cats with hounds in WA in your lifetime. I'll be right there with everyone else screaming we need those back till I can't scream anymore but we gotta quit putting everything on predators. We gotta put our voice behind things that can still actually make a difference 

Karl this simply isn't true!

WASHINGTON IS THE ONLY WESTERN STATE WITH UNRESTRICTED MULE DEER HUNTING.

There is no limit in Idaho or Montana for resident mule deer hunting, maybe limits on non-residents, but not for residents. I'm not sure about other states but suspect there are no limits on resident deer tags in some other states, thinking Wyoming for starters?

comparing ID mule deer to WA mule deer is laughable! We have the lowest available habitat in ANY western state for mule deer! second highest people population to that of CA. Yet we have a free for all mule deer seasons. MANY states regulate their mule deer. WA does absolutley NOTHING but sell tags. ID may have very generous seasons, but they are good at monitoring harvest. You can hunt from Canada to UT in ID for mule deer! staggering amount of terrain to hunt compared to WA

[Skyvalhunter]

You can bet non resident limitations are coming for all states. Its the trend already happening

[huntnnw]

You can bet non resident limitations are coming for all states. Its the trend already happening

better question what state doesnt have non resident limitations? WA is the only one

[bearpaw]

I don't agree that everyone should be able to hunt all seasons. It's already too crowded as it is, that would only make it worse, and it's the reason in the first place many years ago that they went to a choose your weapon type system. However I do agree people should try to cut back as much as they possibly can on how many licenses and applications you purchase.

So explain to me then. Why do people choose to spend money in other states where they can hunt with their choice of several weapons. I believe that you are one who does this. I also get that there are different species you can hunt. But other than speed goats we have pretty much the same choices.

not very many western states allow multiple weapon season hunting and if they do it usually involves an additional fee.

Fact is MS (deer specifically) puts a lot of additional strain on a limited resource. Ive been shouting for years that this state needs to tighten up deer hunting for the sake of our mule deer. We are THE ONLY western state with completely wide open and unbridled deer hunting and we have embarrassingly low deer numbers. We have all screamed "follow the science" in recent months due to the spring bear debacle but we fall silent on mule deer when following the science means less opportunity. 

As for hitting wdfw in the wallet, that does nothing more than feeding into exactly what Inslee and his anti's want. Their goal is NO HUNTING so if everyone stops participating they have achieved their goal. Its quite literally exactly what they want. License sales are a mere drop in the bucket that is WA states annual budget. They'll reallocate some funds to pay for blue bird boxes and wolves and they won't give hunting a second thought.

Don't we have fewer overall hunters than the heydays of the early 90's?   

Too many hunters isn't the problem, I rarely bump into them.  The problem is hunters being corralled in smaller spaces due to road closures and dwindling access, and less game due to lack of predator management.

where in my statements did I claim we have more hunters now than in the 90's and how is that stat relevant to current game populations, usable habitat, and fixing the issues at hand?

I believe the focus is wrong, we need to focus on increasing access to timberlands, we need USFS,DNR etc to focus on opening closed roads, and we need to focus on predator management rather than reducing hunters even more.   We're already a 3% minority and your ideas will further reduce that, why have hunting at all for a 1 or 2% minority that squabble about there being too many hunters?   Shoot yourself in the foot for better hunting and less pressure in a couple years?

You're so off base with what I said. You keep pointing out hunter numbers and over crowding.  Where did I say a single thing about over crowding or hunter numbers?  The simple truth is mule deer numbers continue to plummet and we just keep banging away. Sure up in your neck of the woods bears and cats are pretty out of control, but there are large areas of this state with no bears and very few cats yet MD numbers continue to plummet. USABLE habitat continues to shrink by the day but we continue to sell unlimited tags, multi season permits by the hundreds, damage tags for doe's and piles of doe tags in the draws. We can shoot two bears, hunt coyotes year round, and cats almost year round but very few actually do. So whats the realistic answer to help get mule deer back on their feet? Open more roads to increase access to kill more deer? Continue to hunt them unrestricted? Continue killing females? WASHINGTON IS THE ONLY WESTERN STATE WITH UNRESTRICTED MULE DEER HUNTING. How insane is that!?!!

Also your 2% draw odds with 15 points is dishonest and you know it. If it was a statewide draw there would be thousands of tags not dozens like there currently is.

Listen, we wiped all predators from the landscape at the turn of the century when the population of the US was 1/3 of what it was. Of course we had an ungulate boom (which I'd give almost anything to have witnessed) but that was man made, not natural. If we want these species for our children and our grandchildren to be able to hunt we gotta check some selfishness at the door. Yeah we need to kill predators, but we more importantly gotta start preserving habitat. Look to Wyoming and what that state is doing with mule deer migration corridor preservation and its effect on populations.

We can keep screaming predators at the top of our lungs but guess what folks, you aren't gonna bait bears in WA in your lifetime. You're not gonna run cats with hounds in WA in your lifetime. I'll be right there with everyone else screaming we need those back till I can't scream anymore but we gotta quit putting everything on predators. We gotta put our voice behind things that can still actually make a difference 

Karl this simply isn't true!

WASHINGTON IS THE ONLY WESTERN STATE WITH UNRESTRICTED MULE DEER HUNTING.

There is no limit in Idaho or Montana for resident mule deer hunting, maybe limits on non-residents, but not for residents. I'm not sure about other states but suspect there are no limits on resident deer tags in some other states, thinking Wyoming for starters?

comparing ID mule deer to WA mule deer is laughable! We have the lowest available habitat in ANY western state for mule deer! second highest people population to that of CA. Yet we have a free for all mule deer seasons. MANY states regulate their mule deer. WA does absolutley NOTHING but sell tags. ID may have very generous seasons, but they are good at monitoring harvest. You can hunt from Canada to UT in ID for mule deer! staggering amount of terrain to hunt compared to WA

I wasn't comparing the hunting, I was only pointing out that WA isn't the only state with over the counter mule deer tags which was falsely stated. It's not that I think mule deer hunting is good in WA, but I do believe if tags are limited we will have fewer hunters than we already have, so I don't think it's a good idea to limit tags in WA.

There are other ways to limit harvest, create more limited entry areas, try two point only, three point only, or four point only. I would point out and compare Idaho in this way, since mule deer herds have declined due to harsh winters and are slow to come back, mule deer doe hunting has been eliminated statewide and predator hunting has been increased further, all cougar quotas were removed this year, it's open statewide until March 31.

I'm aware predator hunting will likely not be increased in WA, but isn't mule doe hunting still occurring? In WA if you were to pick five test units that currently have doe hunting, remove all doe hunting and implement greater restriction on buck harvest, herds in those units would likely increase?

Perhaps three point only (only three points on at least one side can be taken) to eliminate those big three pointers doing all the breeding. Forkies and 4x4's would be protected, if a 2.5 year buck becomes a small four he is protected, he's the one you want breeding, not the three pointers.

I'm not saying "it's got to be my way" I'm just trying to throw out some ideas so we don't lose more hunters in WA.

[bearpaw]

You can bet non resident limitations are coming for all states. Its the trend already happening

better question what state doesnt have non resident limitations? WA is the only one

even better questions: Will that make any difference? How many mule deer are taken by NR hunters? What if other states reciprocate?

[Karl Blanchard]

Its not a false statement Dale. You are twisting my words. I said unrestricted not OTC.  You even quoted it to respond to it then changed what I said.  MT and ID very much control overall harvest. They have OTC resident tags but capped NR tags. They also have more game, more land, and less people. They know resident hunters are X, and NR hunters are Y, which equals Z. Literally every single person in the country could theoretically purchase a WA deer tag and come hunt. Obviously thats an extreme example but its a statement of fact.

[bearpaw]

Its not a false statement Dale. You are twisting my words. I said unrestricted not OTC.  You even quoted it to respond to it then changed what I said.  MT and ID very much control overall harvest. They have OTC resident tags but capped NR tags. They also have more game, more land, and less people. They know resident hunters are X, and NR hunters are Y, which equals Z. Literally every single person in the country could theoretically purchase a WA deer tag and come hunt. Obviously thats an extreme example but its a statement of fact.

OK, sorry I misunderstood what you said, my bad.

But honestly, I don't think non-residents are a problem in this state, but maybe someone has numbers to prove that wrong? To make a difference we probably need to address factors that are having the biggest impact, that is likely resident harvest in WA. Predators are not an option in WA.

Let me add this, I know many hunters in states with limited resident tags, that is their biggest complaint about their state management, they are forced many years to go out of state to hunt or they don't deer or elk hunt, in some cases they quit hunting. They also worry that their kids will have no interest in hunting if they can't go hunting each year.

[Karl Blanchard]

We just have to agree to disagree on predators Dale. MD are on the decline ACROSS the west, not just WA. Large portions of mulde deer range that are mostly free from wolves, bears, and cats yet still declining. Once again look to WY and their research on migration corridor fragmentation.  Every hour of every day humans are chewing up winter range and cutting off migration routes. Wyoming's collar data shows us that those migration routes sre lost after 1 generation. One freaking generation! Its crazy to hear you say that habitat loss is almost a non issue when there is endless data showing the opposite. The US population has doubled in the last 50 years, and the west is being settled like they fired back up the Oregon trail. Housing developments creep into the foothills on the daily.


And to be clear, of course predators are a large data point. Look at the Blues study and its glaringly obvious whats happening to elk down there,, but like i said above, soooo many areas of the west where MD are constantly dwindling where there are few predators to deal with besides some coyotes.. As I stated before, we aren't getting hounds and bait back. Its a moot point. But as Shane mentioned previously, we can still hunt the hell out of predators in this state. Predator hunting is hard and people just choose not to do it.  We can all still kill two bears each, a cat, and as many coyotes as we want 

[Special T]

We just have to agree to disagree on predators Dale. MD are on the decline ACROSS the west, not just WA. Large portions of mulde deer range that are mostly free from wolves, bears, and cats yet still declining. Once again look to WY and their research on migration corridor fragmentation.  Every hour of every day humans are chewing up winter range and cutting off migration routes. Wyoming's collar data shows us that those migration routes sre lost after 1 generation. One freaking generation! Its crazy to hear you say that habitat loss is almost a non issue when there is endless data showing the opposite. The US population has doubled in the last 50 years, and the west is being settled like they fired back up the Oregon trail. Housing developments creep into the foothills on the daily.


And to be clear, of course predators are a large data point. Look at the Blues study and its glaringly obvious whats happening to elk down there,, but like i said above, soooo many areas of the west where MD are constantly dwindling where there are few predators to deal with besides some coyotes.. As I stated before, we aren't getting hounds and bait back. Its a moot point. But as Shane mentioned previously, we can still hunt the hell out of predators in this state. Predator hunting is hard and people just choose not to do it.  We can all still kill two bears each, a cat, and as many coyotes as we want 

I don't think it's an either or habitat vs predators. I think folks like me, and perhaps Dale, see that excess predators arnt helpful even if you think habitat is a problem. I thinkmitnwould be great to do a collar study to figure out travel corridors. But how  how donyounget the info when your animals are eaten. Was it only 9  of the 125 elk calves that made it through the blues study?

[Karl Blanchard]

Come on T. I said right in that post that predators are a factor. I never once stated its a habit vs predator issue.  And I'll correct you on the "think" portion of your statement that habit loss is an issue. Its a FACT that habitat loss is a giant elephant in the room. When you develop USABLE habitat on your winter ranges into housing and strip malls you degrade the carrying capacity of land. That equals less deer. Plain and simple. How many historic migration routes throughout the west have had roads and housing developments punched right through them? The answer is an immense amount. We (not WA) are just now catching up to a lot of it with land purchases,  animal bridges, etc to help correct some but for lots of herds its too late and those routes are lost forever.  Predators are the easy button when looking at things to blame. God forbid as a human race we look in the mirror when playing the blame game...

[Humptulips]

I am not a mule deer hunter but I will throw out a factor they may play into the complaints about crowding and eastside hunting. If there was better blacktail hunting maybe there wouldn't be so many guys head across the mountains. I know a lot of guys that go eastside just because it is so hard to find a blacktail buck.
I return to predators as the main problem.

[Karl Blanchard]

In 1960 the population of WA state was 2.8 million people. In 2022 the population of WA state is 7.76 million people. Let that sink in a bit. Those people don't all live on house boats. To say that habitat loss and degradation isn't an issue with a population increase of almost 5 MILLION humans is crazy to me. And let's remember habitat and USABLE habitat are two very different things. All the rolling cheat grass hills in the world aren't gonna support very many MD. You can kill every single predator from that landscape and you still won't regain any meaningful numbers.

Does the current state of forest management make me sick? Yes. Does losing spring bear, hounds, bait, and the moratorium on killing wolves make me sick? YES! But to be so short sighted and stubborn as to put sole blame on the backs of predators is disappointing as you all have shown you have the intellect to look deeper than that.

We aren't getting hounds and bait back. Spring bear is fun but its a small management tool. We can more than make up for 146 bears if we all just put more effort into actually hunting them. And let's be honest, the likelihood of ever hunting a wolf in WA or OR in any of our lifetimes is closer to zero than it is 100%. Habitat enhancement is something we can still control and almost everyone can get behind. Predator killing divides the room before there is even a conversation started.

[callturner]

Yup , they took away the hounds then opened the eastern season a month earlier in to august. That didn't work so they gave us 2 bears anywhere in the state. And that didn't cure the problems so they gave us a spring season on the east side. Now its gone , whats next? 

[pianoman9701]

I'm not sure, Karl. Ever since 1996, there's been a concentrated predator spiral in WA and it's solely been promulgated by animal rights groups. They don't care about animal rights. They care about ending hunting. First hounds and bait outlawed. Then, large Canadian grey wolves allowed to migrate in from the GYA. Now, Spring bear is gone. Although I agree with you that quality habitat has declined, ungulates have declined even more, especially deer, in places with good habitat. That is to say that the population densities of deer in sustainable habitat have fallen below carrying capacity. It certainly has to do somewhat with forest health in those areas. But the impact of predators can't be overstated.

[Karl Blanchard]

So what about areas with very little predation or stagnant predator populations John? How do you explain away those deer populations?