Paper tuning question

[Stein]

I had new strings put on my bow and finally got around to paper tuning it.  It took more effort than expected, ran out of room on the vertical adjuster for my rest so I moved my d-loop and finally got it shooting a near perfect tear close up and back to 5 yards.  I didn't want to leave the garage as it was raining.

I happened to notice that with a nocked arrow, if I hold the bow with the rear string vertical that the arrow is noticeably pointed down (nock high).  Not knowing much about bows, it would seem more normal for the arrow to be at or very near horizontal.

Is this normal?  Anything I might be doing wrong in the paper tune process?  I went back to the paper and even made sure I wasn't shooting at a down or up angle at the paper to see if that would change anything and it shot a perfect tear when shooting straight horizontally at the paper.

[andersonjk4]

Have you checked the cam timing after the new string was put on?  I had to slightly adjust the timing on my cams after replacing strings.  I am not an expert, but I think the arrow should be pretty close to nock level if the bow is in tune and the arrow spine is correct.

Any chance the fletching is hitting the rest or the sight housing? 

[Stein]

I'll have to look to see if there is fletching contact.  Riverside put the strings on, I think they are a very reputable shop and I don't have any practical way to check timing and honestly that's outside my wheelhouse.

[MR5x5]

Re-reading your post. I would suggest you have Riverside tune it for you. Unless of course you want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes....

[blackveltbowhunter]

Lots of variables with this one. Nock high is routine with alot of solo cams. Arrow spine is a big factor as is cam timing. If you can draw the bow comfortably it is not difficult to check draw stops with a partner standing to the side of bow if no access to a draw board and tell you if one or the other is advanced/retarded.

[Stein]

Re-reading your post. I would suggest you have Riverside tune it for you. Unless of course you want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes....

I don't   

I'm down enough rabbit holes and trying to keep archery as simple as possible.  I like to make my own arrows and have no desire for anything more involved than that.

I'll probably take it up to Riverside and chat with them, I have been looking at getting a new sight anyway.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

It shoots well out to the distance I want, so I should actually probably just leave it at that.

[ACCUBOND]

Not sure what rest you have but mine pops up a little bit more just before full draw. So it does point downward until that last few inches of draw. Pull the string that is attached to your rest as the bow string would at full draw to see.

[blackveltbowhunter]

Re-reading your post. I would suggest you have Riverside tune it for you. Unless of course you want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes....

I don't   

I'm down enough rabbit holes and trying to keep archery as simple as possible.  I like to make my own arrows and have no desire for anything more involved than that.

I'll probably take it up to Riverside and chat with them, I have been looking at getting a new sight anyway.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

It shoots well out to the distance I want, so I should actually probably just leave it at that.

    if its doing what you want, no need to change.

[Stein]

Not sure what rest you have but mine pops up a little bit more just before full draw. So it does point downward until that last few inches of draw. Pull the string that is attached to your rest as the bow string would at full draw to see.

Thanks, I read that somewhere else and tried and it doesn't move up at all when I get to full draw from what I can see.

[Stein]

OK, I decided to make the $35 investment into a DIY draw board.  Here are the pics of my cam at very near full draw.  Both pics are at the same point in the draw. 

Top pic is the bottom cam and pic got rotated.  In that pic it's nearly touching the cable to the left, maybe 1/64" away. 

Bottom pic shows gap between stop and cable.  I assume it's supposed to contact the cable below it?  The cable over that stop is the yoke cable coming from the cam and the stop can't touch it as it passes between the cable yokes.

I'm planning on taking it into Riverside in the morning.

If it is bad timing, is this normal for a bow with new strings as the strings break in?  They put new strings on before hunting season last year and I probably shot a hundred or two arrows I'm guessing.

[hughjorgan]

OK, I decided to make the $35 investment into a DIY draw board.  Here are the pics of my cam at very near full draw.  Both pics are at the same point in the draw. 

Top pic is the bottom cam and pic got rotated.  In that pic it's nearly touching the cable to the left, maybe 1/64" away. 

Bottom pic shows gap between stop and cable.  I assume it's supposed to contact the cable below it?  The cable over that stop is the yoke cable coming from the cam and the stop can't touch it as it passes between the cable yokes.

I'm planning on taking it into Riverside in the morning.

If it is bad timing, is this normal for a bow with new strings as the strings break in?  They put new strings on before hunting season last year and I probably shot a hundred or two arrows I'm guessing.

That’s way out of time. Normally you want to shoot 100 or so arrows and let the strings and cables settle, they may stretch a little but that doesn’t even look like they took the time to check your cam timing to me. Easy fix though.

[pianoman9701]

Not sure what rest you have but mine pops up a little bit more just before full draw. So it does point downward until that last few inches of draw. Pull the string that is attached to your rest as the bow string would at full draw to see.

I have a drop-away rest and the arrow points downward until I draw it back. 

[Stein]

Glad I checked it before I went back through the tuning process and beat myself into the ground.  I messed around with it this week and got bare shaft hitting right with fletched back to 20 yards, but then broadheads were 3" low no matter what I did.  I decided to do more research and start over from the beginning, didn't make it past step 1.

[OltHunter]

What kind of bow is this and how much nock high are you?

[Stein]

Hoyt Pro Defiant 34, 2017 I think.

I just measured and if I put the nock on the bottom knot of the d-loop it's level, so it probably looks worse than it is.  If I put the arrow below the d-loop it's a bit nock low.

We'll see if that changes when I get the timing fixed.

[OltHunter]

I'd say that's fine to have.  All the Prime's I've setup usually like 1/8" nock high.  A bow might like a nock high, or form/hand shape might warrant it a bit high too.  But generally anything within 1/8" is not a concern for me.

Also to speak to your timing question, new strings need 50 to 100 shots before a tune should happen.  No matter the manufacture, I've found they stretch a bit and I lose 2-3 pounds of draw weight.  I'm at 32" draw length and heavy arrows so it might not be as drastic for other people.

From your pictures, you'd probably want to add 2 to 4 full twists into the one hitting first.  That could also take out some of your nock high depending on which side it's on.

To save you time on rabbit holes, what I've found is you need to setup everything within spec initially.  That usually means draw weight is at spec at limb bolts fully turned in.  Timing exactly touching at the same time.  13/16 to 7/8 sight from the riser.  Arrow dead level from the shelf through your berger hole.  I usually run the bottom of the arrows through the middle holes.

Then check your arrow left and right (cam lean) when compared to the riser. Shim or adjust buss cables to get the arrow as straight parallel as possible.

Shoot every arrow to get a consistent tear.  If you can't you will chase your tail.  If 1 or 2 arrows are different, rotate the nock.  Get all 12 or 6 of your arrows with the exact some tear, and then tune to that.  You'll be surprised the difference.  Bareshaft tune in my opinion is not needed or has a lot of importance.  Once you fletch, it's a whole different reaction.  Walk back tune, torque tune, pulling hard into the wall and soft into the wall to tune (forgot what that is called) will be more beneficial and ultimately broad head tuning is where we want to be.

If you can't get consistent tears, you will never be able to tune your bow.  Most likely there is contact, face pressure, or grip/form issues.  Those need to be fixed before you tune.

When you take it back to Riverside, make sure they check your draw weight with your screws turned all the way up.  It needs to be to your bow's spec.

Get your timing perfect, rest is the right spot, nock in the right spot, arrow level and parallel to your shelf/riser.

You should never have to move your rest more than 1/8" once you start tuning.  I default to moving rest left for clearance and if I have to go right, I'll adjust buss cables or shim.

I also always default for timing to add twists to the peg hitting first, since I lose draw weight over time. 

You bow may end up with them not hitting exactly at the same time, many will hit the top one first once you're all done. 

If you find all this interesting, get yourself a press and self serve.  That's the best way to do it!  A bow shop can't spend the time needed for all this or they wouldn't make any money.  A few trips to the shop would make a press a worthy investment!

This is just some quick notes on it all, let me know if you have any more specific questions.

[Stein]

Thanks, I did a bunch of Googling and have a written plan so I don't go off on any tangents.  I hadn't planned on shooting multiple arrows at paper, so I'll be sure to do that as it makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid having a press because that will lead to another shelf in the garage full of stuff.....

I'll have Riverside get the cams timed and we'll see if I can get through the rest without a press.  I can at least hope.  At the end of the day, I'm nearly 50 with eyes headed the wrong direction so I'm pretty much a 60 yard range guy and 40 max hunting.  I only need to have something that works well enough.

[Stein]

Well, I went through the whole paper tuning with bare and fletched arrows, got it all dialed in the other day and finally screwed on a broadhead today.  It hit perfect, so there must be something to this.  It's only 20 yards, but it gave me huge confidence.  I'll validate out further later this year, no rush.

I also remembered to order broadheads so I'm not driving around Bozeman on the way through again this year.

[spin05]

I'll have to look to see if there is fletching contact.  Riverside put the strings on, I think they are a very reputable shop and I don't have any practical way to check timing and honestly that's outside my wheelhouse.

when i have Riverside put new strings on. I pay the extra $$$ to have them  paper tune.  My bow never shot better afterwards.

[Stein]

Latest saga is I was getting a left impact at longer distances.  So, I spend an hour messing around with leveling the 3 axis (axes?).  It's super fidgety to begin with but I keep going back and forth.  I'm using a 6" level on the strings, I level the strings then check again and they aren't level.

Finally, I try both sides of the level.  One side shows level the other shows off level.  I proceed to round up every level of every variety I own which happens to be another 5 that can show vertical.  Yep, crappy level isn't level.

Once I got that figured out, the sight was much easier to level.

Now, I just need to go shoot and zero at 80-90 to build a custom tape.  I tried way to many times to make one of the factory tapes work, but as I suspected from my rifle knowledge that isn't going to be possible for one tape with only a velocity variation to cover every arrow and bow that shoots at that speed.  Fortunately, I found Archer's Advantage and we'll give them a shot.  I used them for my arrow builds, but had no idea they also do custom sight tapes on way more variables than speed.