Goat Rocks mountain goat permits

[jackelope]

Why on earth...for all that is holy....why the hail would the WDFW schedule a goat capture operation in the Goat Rocks during what's normally hunting season, thereby shortening the season to start 10/1 instead of 9/1 and then why would they also drop the number of permits to 1 per side? I'm not a biologist, but this doesn't make sense to me.
Note to include that when I had my permit it snowed in September up where the goats mostly are on the West unit and I had pretty significant access challenges in early October. This new 10/1 start date could cause some access hardships.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-03/bighorn-sheep-moose-and-mountain-goat-summary-sheet.pdf

Change #4 is proposed because the Department is planning an aerial and/or ground mountain
goat capture in the Goat Rocks Wilderness and surrounding area for September 2023.
Overlapping hunting and capture operation activities will negatively impact both hunting and
capture success. Therefore, the Department is proposing to shorten the hunt dates for the Goat
Rocks West and Goat Rocks East special permits.
4. A modification of the Goat Rocks West and Goat Rocks East hunt dates from September 1 –
November 30 to proposed dates of October 1 – November 30.

@Bushcraft

[Karl Blanchard]

Unacceptable

[Stein]

Sounds like you answered your own question.   

While you are in there looking at commission docs, take a peek at all the activity around the Game Management Plan and Guiding Principles. 

[Katmai Guy]

Sounds like you answered your own question.   

While you are in there looking at commission docs, take a peek at all the activity around the Game Management Plan and Guiding Principles.

Also, why would they schedule a capture so near Winter time when the goats will have less time to recover from the stress of the transfer before snow flies? ? F'n idiots

[Stein]

At the place where I work, one of the VPs is constantly reminding us when we have confused activity with accomplishment.

[jackelope]

Sounds like you answered your own question.   

While you are in there looking at commission docs, take a peek at all the activity around the Game Management Plan and Guiding Principles. 

The question, while rhetorical, is why on earth would they schedule a capture during what's supposed to be hunting season?

[Stein]

The question is why would we think there would be a hunting season while they were capturing?  GMP and Guiding Principles are changing to say hunting happens after, and only if every other conservation issue has been addressed.

[baker5150]

Sounds like you answered your own question.   

While you are in there looking at commission docs, take a peek at all the activity around the Game Management Plan and Guiding Principles. 

The question, while rhetorical, is why on earth would they schedule a capture during what's supposed to be hunting season?

Why would the capture take priority over the hunting season?
If both would have negative outcomes in concurance, move the capture, not the hunt.   

[jackelope]

Sounds like you answered your own question.   

While you are in there looking at commission docs, take a peek at all the activity around the Game Management Plan and Guiding Principles.

Also, why would they schedule a capture so near Winter time when the goats will have less time to recover from the stress of the transfer before snow flies? ? F'n idiots

My amateur hour guess would be accessible country and a lower risk of stress to the goats due to hotter summer temps. Too much snow, the capture guys can't get there. Earlier in the year it's too hot and the animals overheat. Maybe.

[Katmai Guy]

Isnt a capture done when the population is over the carrying capacity of the area?  With permit numbers being reduced over the years, it seems a capture would not be needed.  Unless next year there are zero permits due to reduced population.  They just accomplished their goal,  no hunting season.

[jackelope]

Isnt a capture done when the population is over the carrying capacity of the area?  With permit numbers being reduced over the years, it seems a capture would not be needed.  Unless next year there are zero permits due to reduced population.  They just accomplished their goal,  no hunting season.

I was wondering about that too, but then I decided in my pea brain head that they could be capturing to collar or something else.  Who knows. I know in the summer of 2017 I saw hundreds of goats in the Goat Rocks, what would now be the Goat Rocks West. At that point it was all one unit and there were 5 tags. Now there are 2 total.

[jackelope]

I believe WDFW deemed them non-native, thus the goal population is 0.

Non-native where?  In the Goat Rocks?

[Stein]

Sounds like you answered your own question.   

While you are in there looking at commission docs, take a peek at all the activity around the Game Management Plan and Guiding Principles. 

The question, while rhetorical, is why on earth would they schedule a capture during what's supposed to be hunting season?

Why would the capture take priority over the hunting season?
If both would have negative outcomes in concurance, move the capture, not the hunt.

Listen to the commission meetings.  Hunting is going to move to the bottom of the totem pole and only happen if and when everything else is taken care of.  They are adjusting the commission documents and will likely push for RCW changes if I had to guess.  Or, just ignore them like the state has been known to do with laws they don't like.

[Stein]

I believe WDFW deemed them non-native, thus the goal population is 0.

Non-native where?  In the Goat Rocks?

My bad, confused as usual.  The only mention on the website seems to be Jan-March captures for collars.  No mention I could find of captures this fall.

[jackelope]

I believe WDFW deemed them non-native, thus the goal population is 0.

Non-native where?  In the Goat Rocks?

My bad, confused as usual.  The only mention on the website seems to be Jan-March captures for collars.  No mention I could find of captures this fall.

I got it out of the link above, which I believe is the link you posted in the Chelan goat thread.

[Threewolves]

Getting back to the GR permits. One reason for the reduced number  of tags could be tribal take. I talked to two Nisqually guys last fall (2022), and one of them said he and another member both took goats in the Goat Rocks. Seemed like it was recent, like in the last few years.





Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

[jackelope]

Getting back to the GR permits. One reason for the reduced number  of tags could be tribal take. I talked to two Nisqually guys last fall (2022), and one of them said he and another member both took goats in the Goat Rocks. Seemed like it was recent, like in the last few years.





Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

The tribes have been hunting there all along.

[jackelope]

Had some communication with a WDFW ungulate specialist responsible for the goats. Their thought is the population has dropped drastically. He said I probably hunted the Goat Rocks when it was in it's prime in 2017. Said they think the goat population now is likely half of what it was in 2017. I can buy that. I asked if predators were a cause or if there were any respiratory disease issues causing problems. That answer was no. Bio said likely drought summers followed by severe winter weather is likely the most significant cause of the decline.
I asked about the capture project. Haven't gotten a response on that yet.

[Rainier10]

I wonder if the goats moved. Goat rocks west is a popular hiking area and hiking got really popular during Covid. I wonder if increased traffic in the area pushed goats out to other areas that they aren’t looking at for counting goats.

[2MANY]

All Goat Rock species are currently in a serious decline.
Except humans of course.

Like everything else it once was incredible.

[jackelope]

2017. All the little white dots …

[Threewolves]

I wonder if the goats moved. Goat rocks west is a popular hiking area and hiking got really popular during Covid. I wonder if increased traffic in the area pushed goats out to other areas that they aren’t looking at for counting goats.

Could be they drift around a bit. The hikers don't seem to bother them much. I've been messing around the GR since 1988. Walked through groups of them, they didn't seem to care. I was taking a break from glassing one morning, I was glassing from the sleeping bag, on a little spur off a main ridge. I saw two goats way off, but heading my way. I lost track of them and I was taking a little snooze. I heard some noise, hooves on rocks and woke up to see a goat at the end of my sleeping bag. I laid real still. The goat seemed focused on the direction it was heading and just walked away. Pretty cool.

 

[Stein]

I wonder if the goats moved. Goat rocks west is a popular hiking area and hiking got really popular during Covid. I wonder if increased traffic in the area pushed goats out to other areas that they aren’t looking at for counting goats.

You should ask them if there are any collars they are tracking.

This is from 2022, they mentioned dip, must be much more than a dip in 2023.

The southern Washington Cascade Mountains support a robust population of mountain goats.
Areas with goat populations span the boundaries of WDFW districts. Specifically, the Goat
Rocks population lies in both Districts 8 and 10, while the Mount St. Helens population lies in
Districts 9 and 10.

Goat populations in the Goat Rocks area have dipped in recent years and currently stand at
roughly 175. Tag numbers have been adjusted downward and hunters fortunate enough to
draw these permits should still enjoy a successful hunt. The Goat Rocks area has been divided
into two hunt areas. Selected hunters need to review the boundaries of the hunt areas before
going afield.

Chelan prospects report had much more data showing the decline for the past several years as well as the target population of 100 necessary to support hunting.