Poult Watch

[bearpaw]

beautimus.....that's right in the ratio we are seeing....our bird populations need rekindled, especially since the state has the most liberal season ever in the Colville area. If I played it right I could shoot 5 birds this year. Rediculous....I don't even think they do that in Missouri.

I called the Upland Manager in Olympia last year to try and explain what was happening with our turkey numbers and all he could do was tell me how he spent opening weekend in the addy area and heard so many gobblers in the morning....

What an idiot, a dozen or even 20 gobblers sounds pretty impresssive to someone who might not hunt to often....in previous years we might hear 40-60 gobblers going off in the morning. The guys who have been hunting this since the beginning know what the good years were like a few years ago.

The honest fact is that all the birds winter up in barnyards when the snow gets deep. All you have to do is ask the farmers how many turkeyss feed with their cattle all winter, especially bad winters like the last two, and that's what you have for birds....period.

Anyway, things are looking better, pray for a mild winter.

[turkeydancer]

Roger that ... and the 5 is just in your area ... if you go west to Unit 101, or south to Mica, Lincoln County, etc and get another during the early fall, and westside for an eastern in the spring ... bingo 7 birds .... 3 bearded, 2 beardless, and 2 either sex ...       

[Wacenturion]

Bearpaw.....glad to see a local from Stevens county speaking out.  I've labored this point on several boards including the WANWTF forum last year.  Hopefully hunters will start to understand that the powers to be in WDFW consider turkeys vermin......yes, that's right...vermin. 

The agency non response to trap and transfer nuisance problems to other areas and counties is a deliberate attempt to not, yes I said not release turkeys anywhere else in state.  They use a "management plan" to disguise it.  Then comes the liberal seasons in the fall.......let alone the spring harvest of two birds in eastside areas.......of which 2 birds in a single day is the dumbest freakin idea ever.  That regulation (2 in one day) accounts for lots of wounded birds and teaches unethical behavior.   That one ranks right up there with the free tag....remember the free taggers the first couple years that was in the regs.

You'll see less and less birds over time.....that you can take to the bank.  Those mature hens that lead the flock are successful nesters.....they are also the first one in line walking by folks in the fall.....wonder how many of those gals take a dirt nap.  Absolutely toilet management by WDFW when it comes to turkeys the last 8 years or so.

[Wacenturion]

Forgot to add......the opportunity to take 5-7 birds a year really does nothing more than lower the status of the wild turkey in Washington.  I've already heard from folks that some people have decided not to hunt the fall even with a tag....it's not as much satisfaction as it used to be.  That's good in the sense that fewer birds might be taken. 

The Washington Slam is a unique opportunity available right here in our state.  Take all three subspecies in a single season (extremely difficult), or in multiple seasons (still difficult....just have more time).  Turkey hunting should be just that....a unique experience, a sport that rivals others in the outdoors.  Letting folks kill off as many as possible spring and fall not only hurts the population, but diminishes the sport.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to fall hunting.  I just believe it you have fall seasons it should be as the spring is....bearded birds only.  In other words, gobblers, allowing for the bearded hen if shot by mistake.  That teaches turkey hunters to pick their shot and make a clean kill, not the opposite by random flock shooting.  Removing gobblers has much less of an impact.  Just my opinion.

The two birds in some counties I feel puts added pressure on gobblers.  If two guys kill two Merriams in Stevens and say move on to hunt Rio's in Walla Walla or Lincoln, the impact is far less than two guys killing two Merriams in Stevens and staying in that spot and killing two more.  Multiply that out over the season, especially the early part if the gobblers are receptive.  Then add into the mix the scenario of two guys shooting at a group of 7-8 jakes running in on their calling location and guns go off trying to limit on four birds....I think you can do the math as far as long term affects on the population in a given local area. 

The nuisance problems were handled quite well during the 90's by Upland Wildlife Restoration staff trained and equipped with rocket nets to remove a given number of birds and move them to other locations....many times out of county to either start or enhance new flocks, reducing the pressure on the Northeast.  I mention that so when you hear a *censored* from WDFW say we have to harvest because of the nuisance problems, you'll know that just an excuse for not wanting to deal with it.  If they dealt with it they would have to release them somewhere...right.   That the last thing they want to do.  Wonderful to see our license dollars at work, isn't it.

[Machias]

  X10

[Turkeyman]

 

[SpokaneSlayer]

I saw a hen with about 5 poults yesterday while scouting for deer.

[bearpaw]

When our spring populations are high and there is a good summer hatch, then there would be no reason not to have a liberal fall season. But such seasons need to be established in August or September after it is deteermined how big the flocks are that are going into fall. Some farmers get fed up with too many birds destroying their haystacks and I have heard stories of some that killed large numbers of birds when the damage got too bad. (Don't agree with it, but can't blame them in one sense, they have to be able to feed their cattle.)

Problem is WDFW has set the liberal seasons after mother nature has already decreased the turkey population by an estimated 70% and alleviated the worst problems. Now we are shooting many badly needed mature hens on the fall hunts. In the future I plan to get more vocal on this issue, I'm busy with other things at the time, but I will need some help from some of you other guys in order to try and get anything done. WDFW does not want to deal with turkeys, they are not going to help us, that was made very clear to me by the upland manager, and that has been mentioned by others on this forum. The only way to get anything done is to build some strong support and go through the right people who can make things happen.

Whether you like NWTF or not, we do have some really good folks here in our local Colville chapter who want to help the birds, we are looking to do on the ground projects here in Stevens County, one focus is to try and find a way to provide better winter forage so we can keep birds out of haystacks. If we can soften that problem, the WDFW will have less reason to kill every bird in NE Washington. We truly beleive this could help birds in the long run and provide more opportunity for hunters.

This spring our group nearly quit NWTF, due to a lack of support from national, our group was going to change our affiliation to most likely SCI which allows 70% of funds to stay with the chapter. The NWTF national is going through big changes this year with new leaders and things seem to be improving, in additional there is a very optimistic regional NWTF bio we are starting to work with, who hopefully can guide us with our on the ground efforts, so we are still an NWTF chapter. Regardless if our group changed affiliation, I would still strongly support NWTF and be a member of NWTF as they are the strongest voice for turkey hunting in America.

BTW - One of my landowners saw a hen that had 13 chicks, but most have 4 to 8, and roughly 50% have none. This is much better than the last couple years.

If someone has any good suggestions on how to help, I welcome the info.

[Wacenturion]

Bearpaw....to answer some of your comments.....

If WDFW did what they used to do with trap and transfer of nuisance birds, there would be far fewer complaints from landowners and also the establishment of new populations elsewhere.  That;'s what happened in the 90's....birds were trapped in Stevens and started flocks in Ferry, P.O., and added new blood in Klickitat.  Had fall seasons, but not liberal ones like we see today.  You also have to look at the long term affect.  You will have good years, but in the long run liberal fall seasons will have an impact.  We are already seeing that.

I'm sure they are great folks in the Colville NWTF chapter.  Years ago I knew a few of them.  Good folks in all the chapters wanting to do good things for turkeys, but as you mentions they almost quit because of the small amount of money that remains in state.  Believe me when I tell you....that will not change.  Bottom line, NWTF controls it and you get what they want to give you if you spend it as they think you should.  Nothing but a big con.  A year or so ago, the CEO, and the two staff right under him were booted.  Actually the CEO resigned.  They received somewhere in the neighborhood of 700K in salaries and probably 300-400K in expenses.  I would have to go back and dig up the figures to be right on...but I'm in the ball park.  That should give you all a warm and fuzzy feeling about the NWTF, let alone all the perks of "business" turkey hunting trips everywhere.

Habitat enhancement does have positive results, but the scope is large and volunteers by themselves will have little impact on reversing nuisance problems.  Sorry to say that, but just being realistic.  When the birds were trapped and relocated the landowners were happy....and as a side note, most did not want all of them removed.  As an example if a landowner had say 200 birds coming in, he was happy if half or slightly more were taken away.  In other words he didn't mind dealing with a lesser number.....landowners enjoyed having them around.  That's not to say that there would be an occasional landowner that wanted them all removed, which is probably more true today due to lack of assistance from WDFW as of late.    

Oh....and the new biologist you mentioned.  Well I can tell you right now, he is not going to disagree much with WDFW.  He has his marching orders, and being in bed with state F&W agencies on issues and getting along is far more important than taking the WDFW to task for the benefit of Washington sportsman.  NWTF does not, I repeat, does not like to rock the boat.  Just be prepared....  

[bearpaw]

I was involved in some relocation, so I know about it, and agree with it completely. We are in total agreement on that being the best choice, furthermore, there are plenty more volunteers who want to get involved and help with it.

One big problem is that the WDFW does not want to do any more relocations. Their answer is to reduce populations so they don't have to relocate.

You can sit on the side and bitch all you want about it, but I choose to find solutions so that we can have better turkey hunting. As a group we are trying to find ways to alleviate landowner conflict and get more birds through the winters.

If NWTF can't help us get the job done, we will drop them and continue in a different manner. But bottom line, it's only the people who are willing to take action that get results. I personally think you need to look past your bad feelings for NWTF because you are not helping turkeys in Washington by simply complaining and bitching. Would you like to help us or would you rather sit on the sidelines and complain? 

I have heard there is a lot of hatred and dissent, I don't know all the politics, and don't really need to, quite honestly my goal is to improve turkey hunting opportunities and I will work on it with or without the NWTF, and I will work on it with our without your help. You are doing turkeys no good by merely sitting and complaining and I choose to do more than that.

This biologist has knowledge about turkeys and the passion to at least try to make improvements. He does have the ear of F&G departments and that is one reason he may be successful. With that said, you should know that the commission sets WDFW policy and that is you you work with to make changes......nuff said.......

I hope we can count on your positive help in some manner.

[Wacenturion]

Bearpaw..............Well I guess you have figured me out.  I'm just a sit on the sidelines and bitch type of sportsman.  Couldn't be that I recognize a shell game both by WDFW and NWTF, just for different reasons.  Yeah...I must be wrong, those two intities have the best interest of Washington sportman in mind.  That's obvious....one collects license fees, and the other memberships, and we get all of those wonderful benefits. 

You're right, my disdain for both of the above keeps me from really doing anything positive for turkeys.  I should have realized that by now....I'm just too negative.  There just isn't much integrity with anything or anyone anymore.  Sorry to say I've been there and done that .....and if I choose to express my opinions about how the sportsman are getting shafted, you just can just call it carping from the sidelines.  I prefer to call it educating folks to why things are the way they are so they can at least approach the problem with some knowledge and understand what is and isn't realistic.

But I get you drift and I wish you well with the volunteers, the new NWTF biologist in whatever else you do for turkeys.  Enjoy your journey.     

[bearpaw]

I agree it is easy to get discouraged with the situation, but it will not do our turkey populations any good to accept the status quo and not try to resolve problems.

You sound very knowledgeable about turkeys in general. If you have any positive recommendations that you feel may help solve the problems at hand, I certainly would very much welcome your suggestions.

I would much rather have your positive input about potential solutions, than to argue with you about past politics of the NWTF. Please feel free to offer any positive suggestions even if you do not want to be involved.

[yelp]

  
I once was heavily involved with the NWTF, trying to assist with areas that the WDFW calls "nuisance".  It is usually a complaint from a landowner feeding cattle in winter..95% of the time.  The other it is human caused where an individual fed turkeys and they are accustomed to coming to these sites annually.  It was fun feeding 10 turkeys for the first winter and now we are feeding 150.  Oat Hay is one of the biggest rascals.  If you switch to barley hay the turkeys don't pay much attention to it..they love oat hay though.  Netting was purchased by the NWTF for years and given out to landowners..Landowners aren't as protective of the turkeys as they once were..which is great for most hunters nowadays.

 Bearpaw..  Do you book fall and winter hunts along with your Spring Hunts?  I know you have a good reputation as an outfitter.  I also know several "so called" turkey guides that lease land where they are feeding turkeys until opening day. and/or lease these so called nuisance sites (landowners recover costs of hay/crop loss from lease money)..Some flocks will break up but I see lots of turkeys opening day still hanging around these areas.  That can be easy money to a guide.  What is your take on this?  Not trying to start something here I just see some issues..they are negative in my view and to other positive.

The reason I ask is you make it sound from previous comments that you want the turkey populations to be successful.  I assume you mean that as a sportsman and somewhat from a business standpoint too.  I know that several people around this state and on this site have a passion for seeing the turkey populations flourish.  Many people on here are the reason we have turkeys in this state.  

I personally would like to see educational material that can be passed out to landowners about feeding turkeys.  I don't think the answer is to kill more turkeys, it is however the only tool enforcement has in a toolbox that they were given.  The toolbox used to have lots of tools and options.  It is in the past we turn to, to look at what happened or what we could have done differently.  

Like I said previous I know you have a good reputation as an outfitter and I have sent lots of newbie hunters your way in the day.  Not trying to upset anyone here.  I want what you want..that is why my family and I were involved so heavily for years.  We put a lot of time and effort into the resource.

  
 

[yelp]

For those that haven't read it...the current direction the WDFW is going.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/water/turkey/management/2005-2010turkey.pdf

Pages 24, 36 and 45 for interesting reading regarding nuisance issues.

[Wacenturion]

Enjoyable read....63 pages of smoke and mirrors.