Roadless Rule Public Comment

[Sundance]

Roads let wolves cover alot of ground

This is true until they find a trapper's set!
Now Washington is another story, I doubt there will ever be any wolf management in WA, but in other states wolves are being managed, and in units with access wolf hunting and trapping, also hound hunting and bear baiting is helping game herds. Access is a necessity for this predator management.

Bearpaw- if you believe that Washington will never have meaningful predator management (especially with wolves), do you still feel that punching in more roads would be a greater benefit to the wildlife then leaving it status quo?

[jackelope]

Every wildfire seems to get stopped at a road.

True.
It’s just a different road from the road where they started at.

There is some truth to that and yet some fallacy. It depends geographically how fires are more frequently started. If you are talking about areas with human population then your statement is more accurate. When talking about wilderness areas and large forested areas its very often lightning that causes more fires and those fires often turn into huge unstoppable fires that burn until milder weather in the fall stop them.

Rescinding the roadless rule has no impact on the man caused fires in human populated areas, but it could have a very positive impact on fires caused by lightning in current roadless areas if there were to become some access into those roadless areas and if logging operations were ramped up significantly to manage those forests.

My thought process is very basic.   Something like 85% of wildfires are human caused. If there are more roads, there are more humans. Where there are more humans, there will be more human caused wildfires.

Source:
 https://www.nps.gov/articles/wildfire-causes-and-evaluation.htm#:~:text=Humans%20and%20Wildfire,Nature%20and%20Wildfire

[baldopepper]

Makes me wonder how our world wide forests managed to flourish for thousands of years before humans decided they could manage them better than mother nature.

[Mtnwalker]

It would be interesting to know the breakdown on an acreage basis between human caused and natural. Looking at the current map I believe nearly all of the large fires around us right now are lightning fires. Sugarloaf, Labor Mtn, Wildcat/Bumping, Pomas, Crown Creek, Rattlesnake, Lynx Mountain, Tacoma Creek, Perry. The only man-made fire currently burning over 1000 acres that I can find is Bear Gulch near Lake Cushman. I do know there have been some giant human-caused ones in the past like the Cub Cr/Winthrop fire

[cjjcb]

I thought this was a good listen that dove deeper into the fire aspect of the Roadless Rule.

https://www.themeateater.com/listen/cals-week-in-review/ep-415-roadless-today-jobless-tomorrow-with-chris-wood-of-trout-unlimited

[bearpaw]

Roads let wolves cover alot of ground

This is true until they find a trapper's set!
Now Washington is another story, I doubt there will ever be any wolf management in WA, but in other states wolves are being managed, and in units with access wolf hunting and trapping, also hound hunting and bear baiting is helping game herds. Access is a necessity for this predator management.

Bearpaw- if you believe that Washington will never have meaningful predator management (especially with wolves), do you still feel that punching in more roads would be a greater benefit to the wildlife then leaving it status quo?

Absolutely, for all the other reasons I mentioned in my replies. Just to be clear, this is federal, the removal of the rule will help us with predator management in the other states.

WA also has a lion problem and they will likely never allow meaningful management there either. At least as long as democrats keep getting elected as governor. However, its actually and easy fix, elect Republicans and wildlife management will get fixed.

[cjjcb]

Friendly reminder -

Public comment period ends Friday 9/19 (tomorrow).

Link for comment - https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/08/29/2025-16581/special-areas-roadless-area-conservation-national-forest-system-lands

[steeleywhopper]

Thank you for the link!
Sent

[overthefalls]

https://www.outdoorlife.com/conservation/americans-unanimously-opposed-roadless-rule-rescission/

[EnglishSetter]

Roads let wolves cover alot of ground

This is true until they find a trapper's set!
Now Washington is another story, I doubt there will ever be any wolf management in WA, but in other states wolves are being managed, and in units with access wolf hunting and trapping, also hound hunting and bear baiting is helping game herds. Access is a necessity for this predator management.

Bearpaw- if you believe that Washington will never have meaningful predator management (especially with wolves), do you still feel that punching in more roads would be a greater benefit to the wildlife then leaving it status quo?

Not specific to wolves, but Which statue quo?  Pre - 1980 when logging got shut down?  Pre - 2K when roadless got a foothold? 

I haven’t witnessed game production increases in those 4-5 decades.

[bearpaw]

Roads let wolves cover alot of ground

This is true until they find a trapper's set!
Now Washington is another story, I doubt there will ever be any wolf management in WA, but in other states wolves are being managed, and in units with access wolf hunting and trapping, also hound hunting and bear baiting is helping game herds. Access is a necessity for this predator management.

Bearpaw- if you believe that Washington will never have meaningful predator management (especially with wolves), do you still feel that punching in more roads would be a greater benefit to the wildlife then leaving it status quo?

Not specific to wolves, but Which statue quo?  Pre - 1980 when logging got shut down?  Pre - 2K when roadless got a foothold? 

I haven’t witnessed game production increases in those 4-5 decades.

  While many people think roadless means more wildlife it actually means less wildlife, especially due to unchecked predator numbers. A patchwork of logging cuts of various age timber stands will provide for the best game populations. It definitely helps if there are road closures, but total roadlessness is not the answer if you want the best game populations. Another massively important factor, the more roadless there is the more human congestion there is in the areas that are still accessible. Unfortunately, many people do not realize these things!

DEER
Unit 121 - Huckleberry is the top producing deer unit in the state of Washington, in spite of the fact there are dozens of large mostly roadless GMU's in Washington, 121 a heavily roaded unit with almost no roadless area that is mostly agriculture and privately owned and heavily logged forests, has the largest deer herd in the state. Its not just whitetail, 121 also has some of the better mule deer numbers in northeast WA. Please look at the harvest by GMU for yourself and compare with roadless units: https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/management/game-harvest/2024/deer-combo#dist-17

ELK
652 - PUYALLUP is the top producing elk unit in the state of Washington, in spite of the fact there are many other mostly roadless GMU's in Washington, PUYALLUP 652 with a heavily human population is the most productive elk GMU in the state. Please verify, look at the stats for every GMU in the state, it will be an eye opener for many: https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/management/game-harvest/2024/elk-combo#dist-17

MOOSE
Unit 121 - Huckleberry is the top producing moose unit in the state of Washington. There are very basic reasons for this, there is very little public land and the forests in this GMU are heavily logged which creates much better forage for moose as well as deer and elk. Yes, 121 is also the top producing elk unit in northeast Washington.

To top it off 121 also produces some of the largest trophies in the state. You can look at other states too, you will find that the greatest game numbers and best trophies are often in units with much human activity like logging, farming, and ranching. Look at Idaho, Montana, or others.

REASONING
Wildlife distribution has changed somewhat over the last two to three decades as predator numbers have become unchecked in roadless areas and logging has been nearly halted on public lands, the game herds in those areas have dropped dramatically. At the same time game is flourishing in GMU's with more human activity, especially logging, agriculture, and private lands for escapement. If you don't believe me even after viewing harvest statistics, I invite anyone to please prove me wrong?

[Tbar]

Is it odd that Montana fwp said this will negatively impact 90% of their elk herds critical habitat on one way or another.  The word we received from them was broad opposition.  Blind support and topics with myopic viewpoints seems way to normal from both sides of the political spectrum. 

[EnglishSetter]

Is it odd that Montana fwp said this will negatively impact 90% of their elk herds critical habitat on one way or another.  The word we received from them was broad opposition.  Blind support and topics with myopic viewpoints seems way to normal from both sides of the political spectrum.

I haven't seen their argument or what they back it up with, but.........

I've seen more than enough book taught bios have no answer to what happened to Sacramento Valley pheasants.  Refuges that used to kill 700 birds opening day are now lucky to shoot 7 all season.  Then......I had a long talk with an old skul bio at Yolo refuge (the only refuge in the area with a stable population of birds).  I asked him "how do you have birds and no one else does?".  Predators, habitat (very similar with plenty of shelter), turkey infiltration (the refuges are now littered with turkey)?  He told me it's all about the water.  Where and when you place it, so that you drown vermin, have the right bugs and plants at the right time for the chicks.  So I proceeded to ask "have you told the powers in Sacto?".  He said "yeh, but it goes in one ear and out the other...cuz they all read a book". 

Now I'm no game management expert or even a bio, but when I get to talk to a guy who's had success (in any field) while everyone else is struggling, I'm gonna put down the collective's  book and listen to what he has to say.  I'd put Bearpaw in that category.

I'll just add that when I was in Jellystone a few years back the Ranger was telling me how WONDERFUL it was to have wolves back.  And when we were fighting MPA's, I had to listen to PhD "scientists" blather on about how salmon trolling had significant impact (incidental catch) on rockfish stocks. 

[bearpaw]

Is it odd that Montana fwp said this will negatively impact 90% of their elk herds critical habitat on one way or another.  The word we received from them was broad opposition.  Blind support and topics with myopic viewpoints seems way to normal from both sides of the political spectrum.

Regarding Montana:
Does that change the fact that all of the best producing units in Montana have significant amounts of farming and ranching?
Does it change the fact that the biggest wilderness in Montana has had its elk herd wiped out by predators?

Look at any one of the top producing elk units in Montana and then find the neighboring unit with the least roads and elk harvest will be less than half and sometimes less than 25%. I cannot put much worth in those who say roadless areas hold more animals, the harvest stats just do not support that belief! However, I would fully agree that seasonal road closures in logging areas are a good thing, game animals thrive in logging areas. Another beneficial thing are the farmers and ranchers who do not allow hunting, those are great reservoirs for game to flourish on the agriculture and then spread into other areas where they can be hunted.

Montana's highest producing elk units all have large amounts of private property that are farmed, ranched, have human activity, and thousands of cattle on the landscape. I outfit in one of these units and the best elk hunting in that unit is on private ranch lands with cattle, humans checking the cows on atv's or horses, agricultural crops, and far fewer predators.
Unit 410 - 950 elk
Unit 380 - 795 elk
Unit 411 - 700 elk
Unit 314 - 658 elk
Unit 393 - 565 elk
Unit 360 - 533 elk


The largest wilderness in Montana is the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Together, the Great Bear, Bob Marshall, and Scapegoat Wildernesses form the Bob Marshall Wilderness Complex, an area of more than 1.5 million acres. Here's the elk Harvest in the most roadless units within the Bob Marshal Complex, according to many people this roadless area should be full of elk! I know outfitters, guides, and hunters who hunt these units, there are many hunts that not one elk is seen during the hunt.
Unit 141 - 4 elk
Unit 280 - 17 elk
Unit 424 - 33 elk
Unit 150 - 50 elk
Unit 442 - 103 elk

These wilderness areas could be better hunting again if arial predator management was allowed (there are no roads for other types of predator management). Wildfires do create good habitat, but too many predators prevent herds from recovering. We all enjoy a wilderness experience, and I would never want to see our wildernesses eliminated, but wilderness hunting is simply not as good as it was 50 years ago before the predator craze took over our government agencies.

2024 Harvest Verified Here:  https://myfwp.mt.gov/fwpPub/harvestReports

[LongBomb]

WA GMU 418, most of the elk are in the lower ⅓ of the unit "the core area" as DFW calls it. Which is active Timberlands. Oddly enough the other ⅔ is national forest with very minimal roads and elk.