Another reloading newb question

[JDArms1240]

I'm early in the learning stage so I have a question for folks that know more than me.

I have been loading 162gr hornady ELD-X's on top of 70 grains of retumbo.  I like these rounds quite a bit but I've noticed every time I shoot something, I find a mushroomed (if you could call it that) slug which I'm guessing is ~50% of the bullet and then a million little fragments, after a ton of research I found this is pretty typical with the ELD-X's.  Which brings me to the 165gr Norma Bondstrike, a bonded bullet.  I have found very limited published info about hand loading these bullets.  I'm going to try to buy their powder that they have listed in their manuals. That was a long explanation that brings the question if I cant find their powder or if its super hard to find:

Since the projectiles are only 3 grains different and very similar BC's, can I use my same recipe or very close, say 69.8 grains of retumbo instead of 70?  Or is this an irresponsible thing to do?

[JDArms1240]

BC info

[Wolfdog2314]

Sounds like finding your dead animal, the bullet had done its job  I’ve really liked the performance of the eld-X. But everyone has their own opinion on bullets of course, as with anything.

Switching to a new bullet, restart your load development with the new bullet. Typically lighter bullets will accept more grains of powder. So u may not necessarily have a reduction in powder weight as you stated.

At any rate, switching bullet, powder, case, I’d recommend starting somewhere in the middle or the reccomended charge for your 162 ELD-X and working up until you find signs of pressure.

[JDArms1240]

Sounds like finding your dead animal, the bullet had done its job  I’ve really liked the performance of the eld-X. But everyone has their own opinion on bullets of course, as with anything.

Switching to a new bullet, restart your load development with the new bullet. Typically lighter bullets will accept more grains of powder. So u may not necessarily have a reduction in powder weight as you stated.

At any rate, switching bullet, powder, case, I’d recommend starting somewhere in the middle or the reccomended charge for your 162 ELD-X and working up until you find signs of pressure.

Aw gotchya, Thanks for the info.  Just to say it though, I wasn’t unhappy with the ELD-X, I fact I was super happy with it.  This is more of a “I wanna mess around” experiment.

[Wolfdog2314]

Sounds like finding your dead animal, the bullet had done its job  I’ve really liked the performance of the eld-X. But everyone has their own opinion on bullets of course, as with anything.

Switching to a new bullet, restart your load development with the new bullet. Typically lighter bullets will accept more grains of powder. So u may not necessarily have a reduction in powder weight as you stated.

At any rate, switching bullet, powder, case, I’d recommend starting somewhere in the middle or the reccomended charge for your 162 ELD-X and working up until you find signs of pressure.

Aw gotchya, Thanks for the info.  Just to say it though, I wasn’t unhappy with the ELD-X, I fact I was super happy with it.  This is more of a “I wanna mess around” experiment.

Ahhh yes and that’s the beauty of hand loading, the never ending pursuit of finding something better/different/faster/higher performance haha.

[JDArms1240]

Sounds like finding your dead animal, the bullet had done its job  I’ve really liked the performance of the eld-X. But everyone has their own opinion on bullets of course, as with anything.

Switching to a new bullet, restart your load development with the new bullet. Typically lighter bullets will accept more grains of powder. So u may not necessarily have a reduction in powder weight as you stated.

At any rate, switching bullet, powder, case, I’d recommend starting somewhere in the middle or the reccomended charge for your 162 ELD-X and working up until you find signs of pressure.

Aw gotchya, Thanks for the info.  Just to say it though, I wasn’t unhappy with the ELD-X, I fact I was super happy with it.  This is more of a “I wanna mess around” experiment.

Ahhh yes and that’s the beauty of hand loading, the never ending pursuit of finding something better/different/faster/higher performance haha.

Yup, I have discovered this, last year I was only a little excited to get all the equipment and hand/re-load.  I loaded up 50 ELD-X’s and hit the field.  I stretched out the range on my rifle (as well as mine) and that was all I needed, after that I was hooked!  I stretched out my tikka’s legs until I found the limit of my scope, 925 yards and hearing metal ring! Now, I’m REAL excited about hand loading!

[jrebel]

Always work up a new load when switching bullets.  Don’t get fixed on any one powder but rather consider powders with similar burn rates as a recommended powder.   Lighter bullets may require a faster burn rates than heavies in the same chambering.  Always good to use multiple reloading resources / manuals to find a good safe staring point. 

Also….no dumb questions when it comes to reloading.  Lots of folks with great information to share. I’m personally not a fan of the HORNADY ELD-x or -m.   I’ll keep lead out of my meat now that monolithic bullets are available and performance is so good. 

[GWP]

Reloading is an addiction. Or can be. At one point between my personal loads and friends I was willing to load for, I was loading 19 different calibers. I only load for me now but that is still 12.
On my Hornet, which I have some great loads for, in the last two weeks, I tested three different bullets in four different powders.
See what you are in for? 

[JDArms1240]

Always work up a new load when switching bullets.  Don’t get fixed on any one powder but rather consider powders with similar burn rates as a recommended powder.   Lighter bullets may require a faster burn rates than heavies in the same chambering.  Always good to use multiple reloading resources / manuals to find a good safe staring point. 

Also….no dumb questions when it comes to reloading.  Lots of folks with great information to share. I’m personally not a fan of the HORNADY ELD-x or -m.   I’ll keep lead out of my meat now that monolithic bullets are available and performance is so good.

Thanks for the info. 

Another question:  I plan on making up 5-round batches of x number of powder grains, and then x.2, and maybe x.4 and so on.  How many of these ‘steps’ do you all start with?  I have 100 brass pieces so I figure I’ll make 5 5-round batches of various powder amounts 

[EnglishSetter]

Do you have a chrono or 300+ yard range available?  If so, a ladder test can help speed your load development.

[dreadi]

When I can't find load data, I call or email the bullet manufacturer. They tend to have at least something to get your started with.


Black Hammer Arms
www.blackhammerarms.com
The Guy On HuntWA Selling Suppressors
@blackhammerarms

[jrebel]

Lots of ways to skin this cat….and all work.  I don’t like to waste powder or components so I do it this way…

1. Start at a safe powder charge and a seating depth of 0.020 off the lands. 
2. Work up 0.5 grains of powder for each subsequent round.
3. Shoot these rounds, allowing your barrel to cool between shots (or at least after ever 2-3 shots).  I prefer 2-3 minutes between shots depending on ambient temperature.   
4.after each shot, look for pressure signs on your brass.  If you see pressure signs…..stop immediately and know that is your max load. (Pressure signs include flattened primers, heavy bolt lift, ejector or extractor marks, blown primers, primer dimpling, etc.)
5.  Watch your target for trends in POI.  Document every shots location.
6.  Hopefully you can chronograph each round to track velocities.
7.   Find a node with the velocities or the POI trends and pick your starting load.
8.  Now you can load 3-5 rounds and shoot for group.   You can fine tune your groups in 0.2 grains of powder increments and with seating depths working away from the lands (jam) in 0.002 or 0.003 increments. 

Don’t hesitate to ask for clarification.  I typed this on my phone so I tried not to be to wordy.   

[HereDuckyDucky]

JR laid out a solid process, particularly if you are good at recognizing "nodes." If you're not as confident in recognizing the "sweet spot" following a ladder test, take the charge you believe is the node and do an OCW test around it, but loading up 3-5 rounds at incremental charges above and below it, making sure to stay safely below pressure.

For example (using hypothetical numbers), if you think you have a node between 60.5 and 61 grains, you might perform an OCW test with 59.5, 59.9, 60.3, 60.7, 61.1, 61.5, 61.9 to confirm where your POI is consistent. Lots of information online about how to do an OCW, so I won't go into that, but it's not hard if you're patient. You will use up some additional components, but a proper OCW is pretty revealing and gives lots of confidence that you have in fact found a good node.

Whatever you do, ALWAYS know where your rifle reaches pressure, and keep your loads safely below it.

RW

[JDArms1240]

Nice, thanks folks!  This is the info I’m looking for. 

I have a spot that stretches to about 1100 yards, but my scope won’t go that far.  The furthest I can go is 925 before the turret tops out.  Real fun to shoot that far but I’m not too worried about the scope since I won’t be shooting an animal that far.

The chronograph is on my list of things to get, so I guess a trimmer isn’t the last item I need to get.  For now I have used someone else’s chrono.

[EnglishSetter]

Nice, thanks folks!  This is the info I’m looking for. 

I have a spot that stretches to about 1100 yards, but my scope won’t go that far.  The furthest I can go is 925 before the turret tops out.  Real fun to shoot that far but I’m not too worried about the scope since I won’t be shooting an animal that far.

The chronograph is on my list of things to get, so I guess a trimmer isn’t the last item I need to get.  For now I have used someone else’s chrono.

IMO 300-500 is plenty.  You don't want to stretch it so far that your equipment is being tested vs the rounds.  I'll add that keeping track of which impact is which gets more difficult the further the target.

[JDArms1240]

Nice, thanks folks!  This is the info I’m looking for. 

I have a spot that stretches to about 1100 yards, but my scope won’t go that far.  The furthest I can go is 925 before the turret tops out.  Real fun to shoot that far but I’m not too worried about the scope since I won’t be shooting an animal that far.

The chronograph is on my list of things to get, so I guess a trimmer isn’t the last item I need to get.  For now I have used someone else’s chrono.

IMO 300-500 is plenty.  You don't want to stretch it so far that your equipment is being tested vs the rounds.  I'll add that keeping track of which impact is which gets more difficult the further the target.

Good points, and for those further ones I’d definitely say that you’re correct.

[JDArms1240]

Lots of ways to skin this cat….and all work.  I don’t like to waste powder or components so I do it this way…

1. Start at a safe powder charge and a seating depth of 0.020 off the lands. 
2. Work up 0.5 grains of powder for each subsequent round.
3. Shoot these rounds, allowing your barrel to cool between shots (or at least after ever 2-3 shots).  I prefer 2-3 minutes between shots depending on ambient temperature.   
4.after each shot, look for pressure signs on your brass.  If you see pressure signs…..stop immediately and know that is your max load. (Pressure signs include flattened primers, heavy bolt lift, ejector or extractor marks, blown primers, primer dimpling, etc.)
5.  Watch your target for trends in POI.  Document every shots location.
6.  Hopefully you can chronograph each round to track velocities.
7.   Find a node with the velocities or the POI trends and pick your starting load.
8.  Now you can load 3-5 rounds and shoot for group.   You can fine tune your groups in 0.2 grains of powder increments and with seating depths working away from the lands (jam) in 0.002 or 0.003 increments. 

Don’t hesitate to ask for clarification.  I typed this on my phone so I tried not to be to wordy.

Ok, I was finally able to get out and do a step test on the BondStrikes.  There doesn’t seem to be lots of published data on them so I started with a very close round and worked up from the lowest charge in half-grain increments all the way up the max.  I used @jrebel’s advice with the only difference being that I loaded up 3 rounds at each grain increment. 

This created more questions though; the rounds never showed even the slightest amount of pressure, not one sign that I’ve seen or read about showed up.  Also, I chrono’d each of my rounds and they were all at least 300fps slower than the published data said they should be; I understand published data isn’t gospel, but it should fairly close, right?  At the max grain amount, the bullets were goin slower than the speed that the book said they should be going at the minimum charge weight. 

So that brings me to the big question, should I keep going up in .5 grain increments, above book max, until I reach signs of pressure?  The book max is 70.5, at which weight the data says the bullet should be going ~3025fps (actual round speed was ~2770).  My round groups seemed to tighten up both in velocity and POI as my grain weight approached the max recommended weight.  my smallest group was the 70.5 with a little less than 3/4” group @ 100 yards.

Or should I switch up the powder completely and try some’m else!?  Thanks in advance fellas. 

Sorry if this made no sense, this felt like a novel to type up on a mobile phone.

[jrebel]

How full is your case at 70.5?  Are you compressing the load or do you still have room.  If there is no pressure I would work up carefully looking for pressure…..assuming I’m not compressing the powder.  I like 90% + case fill with my loads.  I’m not against slight compression but I try to avoid it.  If your case is full and you have not hit pressure and are not getting the velocities you should….i would think a faster powder is needed.

Lots of unknown on my part, so these are just general rules or thoughts.

[JDArms1240]

How full is your case at 70.5?  Are you compressing the load or do you still have room.  If there is no pressure I would work up carefully looking for pressure…..assuming I’m not compressing the powder.  I like 90% + case fill with my loads.  I’m not against slight compression but I try to avoid it.  If your case is full and you have not hit pressure and are not getting the velocities you should….i would think a faster powder is needed.

Lots of unknown on my part, so these are just general rules or thoughts.

Lots of room in there, I’ll try to get some pictures.

[JDArms1240]

I ran out and loaded up a 70.5 grain shell of h1000.  I took some pictures but they suck so bear with me.  I dropped a q-tip in there till it hit the top of the powder, took it out and measured, the bottom of the q-tip is the top of the powder.

[JDArms1240]

.

[EnglishSetter]

I'd be comfortable working up from there, but show us some primers.

Have you chrono'd anything else?

How long is your barrel?

[JDArms1240]

24” tikka T3X in 7mm rem mag
165 grain Norma bondstrikes
Winchester LRM primers
(For this round) h1000 powder

This first picture is 70.5 grains h1000 under a 165gr Norma BondStrike

[JDArms1240]

I also chrono’d some 162gr ELD-X’s, I loaded those on top of 70 grains of retumbo.  They shot real well, their average speed was 2775fps.

This primer pic is the eldx’s on top of 70 grains of retumbo.

[EnglishSetter]

Certainly looks like you have some headroom there.  Just starting to iron out a little.

Temps when shooting?

Do you have any factory available to "test" the chrono?

[jrebel]

Yeah, that combo appears to be a little anemic / slow.  Based on what I see, I wouldn't hesitate to work up a in half grain increments till you find pressure.  I'm not sure what the advantage of loading 3-5 rounds at a time is when your purely looking for pressure....but maybe the drive to the range is long and it makes sense?? 

When I started loading (many years ago) it was explained to me that accuracy trumps velocity.  I still live by that motto.  It is wildly important to chrono your loads for the data as a huge velocity jump can tell you that you are at pressure.  You should see incremental increased between each powder charge increase.  When that stable, incremental increase, has a huge spike.......That's usually the stopping point.  You should also be seeing signs on your brass / primers and likely heavier bolt lift. 

One last thing.....I have seen where seating depth has increased or decreased velocity before.  Closer to the lands can build pressure a little faster and effect velocity and pressure.  Do you know how far of the lands you are? 

[JDArms1240]

I have some factory ammo that I’ll chrono, that’s a good idea.  As far as temps go I think it was 40°-45°.

JRebel, I have seated my bullets at .020” off the lands.

[hunter399]

Yeah, that combo appears to be a little anemic / slow.  Based on what I see, I wouldn't hesitate to work up a in half grain increments till you find pressure.  I'm not sure what the advantage of loading 3-5 rounds at a time is when your purely looking for pressure....but maybe the drive to the range is long and it makes sense?? 

When I started loading (many years ago) it was explained to me that accuracy trumps velocity.  I still live by that motto.  It is wildly important to chrono your loads for the data as a huge velocity jump can tell you that you are at pressure.  You should see incremental increased between each powder charge increase.  When that stable, incremental increase, has a huge spike.......That's usually the stopping point.  You should also be seeing signs on your brass / primers and likely heavier bolt lift. 

One last thing.....I have seen where seating depth has increased or decreased velocity before.  Closer to the lands can build pressure a little faster and effect velocity and pressure.  Do you know how far of the lands you are?

I agree.
Took me a a lot longer to figure out, accuracy trumps everything.
I ran hot loads , probably first five years of reloading.
Hard bolt lifts , primer half popped out......lol.
Not good for brass,not good for barrels.

[hunter399]

I got a few questions.....

1 what primers are you using. Those are brass or gold color primers.
Did your brass come with primers,or what.

How are you resize your cases. On 7mag after I've fired them one time through rifle.
I neck size only after that. You'll see a bit more accurate,longer brass life that way.

I'm just gonna say it here.
H1000, retumbo might be on the slow side of powder for that caliber.
What I'm saying is ,you will fill the case and not reach 3000 fps ,see pressure signs before that velocity happens.

Different powders ,you should be able to hit 2800-3000 fps /160-165 grain bullet. Before max published load data even occurs. I say that ,cause 7mag is kinda strange that way.
Cause if you don't load for 2900-3000 fps,then you could use a 308,270,30-06 be more efficient with powder and hit the same velocity.

[Caseknife]

You are seating .020" off the lands, how does that compare OAL to the loading data you are comparing to?  If you are seating significantly longer than the data you are trying to emulate, the pressure and velocity will be less.  Have to add more powder to get the same velocity.  Hope that makes sense.

[JDArms1240]

I got a few questions.....

1 what primers are you using. Those are brass or gold color primers.
Did your brass come with primers,or what.

How are you resize your cases. On 7mag after I've fired them one time through rifle.
I neck size only after that. You'll see a bit more accurate,longer brass life that way.

I'm just gonna say it here.
H1000, retumbo might be on the slow side of powder for that caliber.
What I'm saying is ,you will fill the case and not reach 3000 fps ,see pressure signs before that velocity happens.

Different powders ,you should be able to hit 2800-3000 fps /160-165 grain bullet. Before max published load data even occurs. I say that ,cause 7mag is kinda strange that way.
Cause if you don't load for 2900-3000 fps,then you could use a 308,270,30-06 be more efficient with powder and hit the same velocity.

My primers are the Winchester LRM’s, that was all they had at the time, I bought 1000 so they’ll last my a little while!  I bought a pile of norma brass, I didn’t size it, but there were 10 or so outta 100 with dented necks so I just ran the sizing mandrel down through the neck to make em nice and uniform and round again.  I’m definitely going to try some different powders eventually, I know I’m in the very early stages of a deep rabbit hole!  My wife is gunna love it I’m sure   

[JDArms1240]

You are seating .020" off the lands, how does that compare OAL to the loading data you are comparing to?  If you are seating significantly longer than the data you are trying to emulate, the pressure and velocity will be less.  Have to add more powder to get the same velocity.  Hope that makes sense.

I suppose this isn’t a thing I’ve really thought about.  My plan was to start @ 20k off the lands with a bunch of different charge weights, find the most accurate one with along with some good velocity.  Then I was gunna take that powder weight and mess with seating depths next.  But you fellas are making me wonder if I’m thinking about that right.

[jrebel]

You are seating .020" off the lands, how does that compare OAL to the loading data you are comparing to?  If you are seating significantly longer than the data you are trying to emulate, the pressure and velocity will be less.  Have to add more powder to get the same velocity.  Hope that makes sense.

I suppose this isn’t a thing I’ve really thought about.  My plan was to start @ 20k off the lands with a bunch of different charge weights, find the most accurate one with along with some good velocity.  Then I was gunna take that powder weight and mess with seating depths next.  But you fellas are making me wonder if I’m thinking about that right.

No, you have that right.  0.020 off the lands is a great place to start.  After you find a node or accuracy with your powder charge weight, then you can fine tune with seating depth if necessary.   Some bullets are very finicky to seating depth and others aren’t.  Just know that you may also see fluctuations with pressure and velocity, so monitor your pressure signs with any change……especially if you are playing with the upper end of safe loads. 

I have never loaded 7 mag so I don’t have much to offer for powders based on your bullet weights.  H1000 is a recommended powder and should do fine.  Also….full length sizing is widely accepted by some of the best shooters in the world.  Neck sizing, though still used, has mostly gone by the wayside.  There are lots of great videos on YouTube that explain why….and Erik cortina has one of the best.  You could learn a lot by watching some of his videos. 

[hunter399]

You are seating .020" off the lands, how does that compare OAL to the loading data you are comparing to?  If you are seating significantly longer than the data you are trying to emulate, the pressure and velocity will be less.  Have to add more powder to get the same velocity.  Hope that makes sense.

I suppose this isn’t a thing I’ve really thought about.  My plan was to start @ 20k off the lands with a bunch of different charge weights, find the most accurate one with along with some good velocity.  Then I was gunna take that powder weight and mess with seating depths next.  But you fellas are making me wonder if I’m thinking about that right.

No, you have that right.  0.020 off the lands is a great place to start.  After you find a node or accuracy with your powder charge weight, then you can fine tune with seating depth if necessary.   Some bullets are very finicky to seating depth and others aren’t.  Just know that you may also see fluctuations with pressure and velocity, so monitor your pressure signs with any change……especially if you are playing with the upper end of safe loads. 

I have never loaded 7 mag so I don’t have much to offer for powders based on your bullet weights.  H1000 is a recommended powder and should do fine.  Also….full length sizing is widely accepted by some of the best shooters in the world.  Neck sizing, though still used, has mostly gone by the wayside.  There are lots of great videos on YouTube that explain why….and Erik cortina has one of the best.  You could learn a lot by watching some of his videos.

I do agree with all that above.
Neck sizing is only cause of the belt on the case.
If it didn't have a belt ,I'd say full length resize .
Remember it doesn't work well to neck size ,unless the brass has been fire formed to your chamber.
What happens is over time and many reloads,the brass will become very thin right above the belt ,if you full length all the time..
Hair line fracture will occur,right above the belt. You'll feel it with a finger nail.
At that point brass is trash.
I guess I would call it neck sizing,with a shoulder kiss.
When setting up a die to do this ,very important to make sure the case fits in your chamber,before reloading any farther,bolt should work as normal. Don't force it,just keep kissing the shoulder till she fits.
After die is set ,run them through,then load each case individually in chamber.
Ensure the bolt closed well on all,then you have reliable hunting ammo brass,that is a tight chamber fit. Headspace is off the belt. So your trying to make sure your case fills that void between belt and shoulder. Very little brass stretch on each firing.

Ask me how I know ,get to the range and can't close bolt. No fun.

[craigapphunt]

Not that my way is better just another way of getting to the same goal. I use a lee collet neck die in conjunction with a redding body die and competition shell holders in .002 increments. Run the brass through the body die to get the shoulder bumped and body back in shape and then pump them through the collet die and your done. The lee die gives great case mouth consistently/concentricity and the body die with the .002 incremental shell holders allows easy no brainer shoulder bumps.

[JDArms1240]

Thanks for all the replies fellas, this is good stuff!