Commercial Huckleberry Picking Survey--Gifford Pinchot

[Tbar]

I think commercial picking of anything in the nf should be illegal!

exactly 100%

I don't... to me this is the same as saying that commercial crabbing or fishing should be illegal in US waters. Or that timber harvest should be illegal in NF (which we need more of). Part of what makes Public Land so valuable is that it has an economic value whether we like it our not and a recreational value. And some public land has more restrictive use, like Indian Heaven where commercial harvest was never allowed.

It's a renewable resources that is hard to replicate on private ground. It does support a lot of local business. Although I may wish there was not the need for commercial harvest for huckleberries, I understand why there is.

I would think of out of the box ideas like setting up Huckleberry Management Zones similar to a GMU for hunting or marine area for fishing could be interesting. You could set season restrictions, access restrictions, etc while still providing an opportunity for all. Of course it will have some of the same battles we have fishing and the cries of over harvest by commercial pickers but it sets up some better boundaries.

Examples of HMZs Restrictions:
These units are flat closed to commercial harvest
These units are only open to commercial harvest on odd years
Commercial harvest is allowed from August 15 to August 31.
These units are closed to all huckleberry harvest (the plants need a break from any harvest like are fishing or hunting does at times)
Even number HMZs are open to commercial harvest on even years

It goes on and on what you could do with HMZs but its just an idea.

Apples and oranges.  Simply put management structure is ony as good as the plan (which there is not anything that resembles a strategic plan) and the enforcement of the structure(which others have already reported observations). Commercial use is not only loosely regulated, it has zero oversight.  The operations I've seen have been messy and destructive.  There is a little respite in recovery due to limited effort overall but I'd rather see it closed until they have a more fleshed out plan. We may be saying the same thing but status quo needs to stop, yesterday.

[avidnwoutdoorsman]

I think commercial picking of anything in the nf should be illegal!

exactly 100%

I don't... to me this is the same as saying that commercial crabbing or fishing should be illegal in US waters. Or that timber harvest should be illegal in NF (which we need more of). Part of what makes Public Land so valuable is that it has an economic value whether we like it our not and a recreational value. And some public land has more restrictive use, like Indian Heaven where commercial harvest was never allowed.

It's a renewable resources that is hard to replicate on private ground. It does support a lot of local business. Although I may wish there was not the need for commercial harvest for huckleberries, I understand why there is.

I would think of out of the box ideas like setting up Huckleberry Management Zones similar to a GMU for hunting or marine area for fishing could be interesting. You could set season restrictions, access restrictions, etc while still providing an opportunity for all. Of course it will have some of the same battles we have fishing and the cries of over harvest by commercial pickers but it sets up some better boundaries.

Examples of HMZs Restrictions:
These units are flat closed to commercial harvest
These units are only open to commercial harvest on odd years
Commercial harvest is allowed from August 15 to August 31.
These units are closed to all huckleberry harvest (the plants need a break from any harvest like are fishing or hunting does at times)
Even number HMZs are open to commercial harvest on even years

It goes on and on what you could do with HMZs but its just an idea.

Apples and oranges.  Simply put management structure is ony as good as the plan (which there is not anything that resembles a strategic plan) and the enforcement of the structure(which others have already reported observations). Commercial use is not only loosely regulated, it has zero oversight.  The operations I've seen have been messy and destructive.  There is a little respite in recovery due to limited effort overall but I'd rather see it closed until they have a more fleshed out plan.

I largely agree with your assessment @Tbar. I agree what is in place is messed up and not functional for the resource. Over harvest, raking, trash, less opportunity for recreation, etc. I don't agree that we should ban commercial harvest or make it illegal but instead should give input on best management of a resource. Lets make a plan. We have a comment period to voice that there is no plan and no proposed regulations. With this comment period we have an opportunity to give input on what that plan should look like before they make up their own that we are really upset about too. Hence as an example of proposed regulation would be the "HMZs". Could also suggest to raise fees on Commercial Licenses to pay for check stations (ie mandatory that commercial users bring their bounty to a NF headquarter like checking in when you get to port) or resources to "police" the commercial harvest like we do with fishing or timber. Increased or add a fee for Non-residents ... I don't like adding fees for anyone also to be clear. I'm not saying I have the answer by any means, I'm more opening a dialogue for if we were to have commercial harvest of Huckleberries on NF (which we should like we have commercial fishing and commercial timber harvest on public lands) what would that best look like and what would it take to get there?

I really don't want everything to be about money either but it's an unfortunate answer. Again probably nothing I would ever say out load but here and in this discussion ... maybe there is a $5 permit for recreational harvest too that pays for enforcement and regulation of all. Along with a increase to commercial harvest permits at $1-2/gal. (I chose that range because 3 gallons in this example is costing me $5 so straight line would be $1.67/gal for commercial permits). We pay for fishing license. I pay $5 every year to go cut a tree down. Me as a recreational user picking huckleberries am getting something largely for free (outside of federal taxes). Again I hate a pay to play for anything mentality but would also through down $5 for a "foraging" permit. That's me though and I already know a vast majority (maybe?) would loose their mine if they had to pay even $5 to go recreationally pick huckleberries. Though if $5 made the experience that much more enjoyable because there wasn't trash and there was berries to be found would you complain a little less?

Currently it is Apples and Oranges, what a commercial fisherman or timber harvest person can do or not do versus what a commercial Huckleberry picker can and can't do. Can we make it apples to apples and what would that take? What would that look like? What would we be ok with?

[pianoman9701]

I’ve never seen so much trash as some of the out of state commercials camps

I think commercial picking of anything in the nf should be illegal!

I agree that the trash and dumping by picking parties sucks and think that increasing the fines exponentially and education might make a difference. But the ban hurt a lot of small businesses. There certainly are plenty of berries for all of us and those that aren't picked or eaten just rot. It's the same with wild mushrooms and greens. I know the little restaurant in Trout Lake lost sales for not having the huck shakes and desserts, and several picking stations had a lot less product come in. I would imagine there was less revenue for the FS from commercial licenses, as well. I'd be for renewing commercial picking with some strict guidelines and really high penalties for dumping.

[Tbar]

All good points @avidnwoutdoorsman . I would say practically speaking the framework you suggest is nearly impossible.  The  usfs had a 20% rif which includes fire and fire had very high retention rates.  Right now they have GS12's cleaning bathrooms.  They were far from efficient prior but now a single project commands nearly all available staff.  Scoping is a thing of the past now so this would have to come in as a baked plan,  not going to happen.  In addition to all of the practical challenges they are billions behind their need for o&m. To me it seems reasonable to keep the pause in place until staff capacity develops a new normal and they are able to think and plan.  Enforcement is a major issue for me and the commercial contingent has shown nothing that says behavior will change. I've never considered a pristine area an area of waste.

[bearpaw]

I think commercial picking of anything in the nf should be illegal!

exactly 100%

I don't... to me this is the same as saying that commercial crabbing or fishing should be illegal in US waters. Or that timber harvest should be illegal in NF (which we need more of). Part of what makes Public Land so valuable is that it has an economic value whether we like it our not and a recreational value. And some public land has more restrictive use, like Indian Heaven where commercial harvest was never allowed.

It's a renewable resources that is hard to replicate on private ground. It does support a lot of local business. Although I may wish there was not the need for commercial harvest for huckleberries, I understand why there is.

I would think of out of the box ideas like setting up Huckleberry Management Zones similar to a GMU for hunting or marine area for fishing could be interesting. You could set season restrictions, access restrictions, etc while still providing an opportunity for all. Of course it will have some of the same battles we have fishing and the cries of over harvest by commercial pickers but it sets up some better boundaries.

Examples of HMZs Restrictions:
These units are flat closed to commercial harvest
These units are only open to commercial harvest on odd years
Commercial harvest is allowed from August 15 to August 31.
These units are closed to all huckleberry harvest (the plants need a break from any harvest like are fishing or hunting does at times)
Even number HMZs are open to commercial harvest on even years

It goes on and on what you could do with HMZs but its just an idea.

Apples and oranges.  Simply put management structure is ony as good as the plan (which there is not anything that resembles a strategic plan) and the enforcement of the structure(which others have already reported observations). Commercial use is not only loosely regulated, it has zero oversight.  The operations I've seen have been messy and destructive.  There is a little respite in recovery due to limited effort overall but I'd rather see it closed until they have a more fleshed out plan.

I largely agree with your assessment @Tbar. I agree what is in place is messed up and not functional for the resource. Over harvest, raking, trash, less opportunity for recreation, etc. I don't agree that we should ban commercial harvest or make it illegal but instead should give input on best management of a resource. Lets make a plan. We have a comment period to voice that there is no plan and no proposed regulations. With this comment period we have an opportunity to give input on what that plan should look like before they make up their own that we are really upset about too. Hence as an example of proposed regulation would be the "HMZs". Could also suggest to raise fees on Commercial Licenses to pay for check stations (ie mandatory that commercial users bring their bounty to a NF headquarter like checking in when you get to port) or resources to "police" the commercial harvest like we do with fishing or timber. Increased or add a fee for Non-residents ... I don't like adding fees for anyone also to be clear. I'm not saying I have the answer by any means, I'm more opening a dialogue for if we were to have commercial harvest of Huckleberries on NF (which we should like we have commercial fishing and commercial timber harvest on public lands) what would that best look like and what would it take to get there?

I really don't want everything to be about money either but it's an unfortunate answer. Again probably nothing I would ever say out load but here and in this discussion ... maybe there is a $5 permit for recreational harvest too that pays for enforcement and regulation of all. Along with a increase to commercial harvest permits at $1-2/gal. (I chose that range because 3 gallons in this example is costing me $5 so straight line would be $1.67/gal for commercial permits). We pay for fishing license. I pay $5 every year to go cut a tree down. Me as a recreational user picking huckleberries am getting something largely for free (outside of federal taxes). Again I hate a pay to play for anything mentality but would also through down $5 for a "foraging" permit. That's me though and I already know a vast majority (maybe?) would loose their mine if they had to pay even $5 to go recreationally pick huckleberries. Though if $5 made the experience that much more enjoyable because there wasn't trash and there was berries to be found would you complain a little less?

Currently it is Apples and Oranges, what a commercial fisherman or timber harvest person can do or not do versus what a commercial Huckleberry picker can and can't do. Can we make it apples to apples and what would that take? What would that look like? What would we be ok with?

Commercial picking is needed to supply businesses that use huckleberries and the customers of those businesses who also enjoy huckleberries. The USFS needs a major overhaul in general, one of the most poorly managed agencies out there.

I see nothing wrong with charging pickers a permit fee to operate, timber companies, ski resorts, mining, outfitters, even homeowners with an access road across USFS land all must have permits and all pay use fees in some fashion for using public land resources. USFS already has personnel in place for implementing and monitoring many types of use permits for all the mentioned activities and I'm sure many more than I mentioned.

Huckleberries, mushrooms, and other resources should all be a part of this process. There are stiff fines for commercial operations that illegally harvest timber, illegally mine, or illegally outfit, or for individuals who illegally build an access road on USFS lands.

Existing management personnel could be laying out a framework for picking, existing personnel could be issuing and monitoring permits, existing law enforcement should be writing tickets for illegal picking.

[Okanagan]

I hate government regulating ever more of our activities, but the commercial huckleberry harvest is a mess.  I'd vote for simply closing the commercial harvest.

I would have a small disagreement with the word need for a commercial harvest to supply business and customers who like huckleberries.  That's not a need but a want. (FWIW I LOVE huckleberries, and the huckleberry ice cream at Ferdinand's Ice Cream Shop on the WSU campus is worth driving across the state to taste).   

There are many resources in nature that have no legal commercial harvest.  I reluctantly believe that a ban on commercial harvest of huckleberries would benefit more of us than it harms.

FWIW, the limit of one gallon of huckleberries for non-commercial pickers is severely unfair to those (relatively few) of us who drive a long ways, maybe even camp out and like to pick enough huckleberries to freeze for pies throughout the year.

[2MANY]

Run out the berry and brush pickers.
Bring back helicopter logging!

[Boar]

I’ve never been around these operations.  What’s the case against this from a hunter’s perspective?  Are the pickers disrupting game patterns?  Starving the bears out with over harvest?

[2MANY]

In my opinion they are like a herd of feral hogs except they litter too.

[fireweed]

I would push for more oversight if they returned commercial pickers.  The USFS must require ID and limit permits to legal USA residents.  This is a federal operation and right now is not the time to be providing permits to anyone and everyone who can turn around and sell our public natural resources for quick cash, no questions asked.  ID the same as if you were to work for the federal government.  Commercial pickers fees should increase--you can pick $40 worth of huckleberries in half and hour to cover the permit.  More areas should be off limits to commercial pickers.  PS  NOBODY is allowed to pick in Wilderness Areas or the Monument, not even recreational pickers, besides what you can eat while visiting the Wilderness.

[Boss .300 winmag]

Run out the berry and brush pickers.
Bring back helicopter logging!

🤣

[JakeLand]

In my opinion they are like a herd of feral hogs except they litter too.

It’s like homeless camps left behind when they’re done , one sight we found would take a dump truck to clear the garbage out