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Author Topic: Mechanical Broadheads  (Read 41206 times)

Offline Ray

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2009, 08:50:05 PM »
RE: As far as traditional vs modern isn't that where you started out?  Where do you draw the line?


Absolutely. You get 1000 archers wounding game with poor products and that's a thousand dead deer. I'd bet hands down my products are superior in more ways than one to any gadget prone modern setup. Simplicity is fantastic as well as reliable. I don't need some bow doc to tune my bows and they are capable of penetrating bone, flesh and taking game as well as or better than any modern setup. Since you wanted to touch on homemade bows please educate me on how it is "inferior". These bows can shoot with the proper poundage any wild game in the state. I would not advocate shooting elephants but we do not have any here. Shafts - IPE shafts are considerabley stronger than many modern shafts of aluminum and have proven to be so efficient because they can be made extremely thin yet denser than many modern shafts. Broadheads - You'll never prove that a single piece of non moving steel is inferior to a mechanical broadhead. That's what does not add up. The studies show.

Why am I so intersted in this? Because all it takes is a bunch of ill informed people to propose something to the game department and we got a total screw up.

Lethal shots is not the point. We should use what we know is good. Not what we know is poorly constructed and performs marginally well in specific situatons.

Please point me to all the positive literature where there have been comprehensive studies in favor of these over conventional blades? I have already supplied some sources. You have failed to do so.

Offline Lowedog

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2009, 09:32:23 PM »
Ray, what you are failing to realize here is that I am not arguing either for or against mechanical BHs.  I am simply trying to point out that your opinion is just that, your opinion. 

I don't use mechanicals and I don't care to.  Others may want to use them and if they can use them in a proficient way then who are you or I or anyone else to say that it is wrong.  1000 archers will still go out and make non lethal hits on animals this season no matter what they have on the end of their arrows because they didn't prepare themselves. 

Lethal shots are the point.  It doesn't matter what you are using if you aren't taking and making lethal shots. 

-Lowedog



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Offline STIKNSTRINGBOW

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2009, 11:49:18 PM »
Just to add my  :twocents: :beatdeadhorse:
 Archery seasons exist today due to the actions of some great men back when bows were considered nothing more than toys for target archery. They had to buy tags and go during rifle seasons. A good shot could put all his arrows into a target at incredible distances even by today's standards, they called it a York Round. They still didn't harvest many animals and were a very small minority. The successful ones shot bows in the 60-70# range with heavy arrows.  It took Sportsmen like Chester Stevenson, Fred Bear, and Glenn StCharles to bring archery to the attention of the game departments and general public to make it acceptable as a viable weapon for big game. It took several years before they got any respect at all. Success rates were dismal because they (the majority) did not realize that you needed to get closer to the game for the broadhead to perform its job correctly.We will be forever indebted to these pioneers in our sport.
If we continue using everything out there to "modernize" archery we will no longer have the privilege of separate seasons.
If we don't quit arguing amongst ourselves about petty little things like equipment preferences, we are going to get blind-sided AGAIN by the game department in favor of the Muzzleloaders and Modern Firearms, You don't hear them arguing about using a .223 for elk, even though I am sure you could kill one with it, and at amazing distance!
You owe it to the game you pursue to use equipment that will perform AND ensure a quick clean kill I don't care how good of a shot you are at the range, when you put hair and a heartbeat on it EVERYTHING changes.

..."The archer may or may not have improved his accuracy at long distances, but most certainly, perhaps unknowingly, has reduced the killing power of his weapon. This fact was bourne out by some recent experiments conducted in our shop, proving definately that arrow weight has more bearing on killing power than does bow weight. For instance, it was dicovered that a 45 pound bow shot a 400 grain arrow with more striking energy (which means better penetrating power) than a 300 grain arrow shot from a 63 pound bow. The meaty part of the whole story is the fact that if an archer shooting light weight arrows did make a hit, unless it was made in the body cavity where no heavy bone was encountered, he probably wont get his deer"
 ..The preceding statement is surprising in that it is the words of Fred Bear in 1942 and long before the "improvements" of modern bows.



......I started bowhunting with a compound and was still using one when during an elk hunt after helping me gut and drag a spike out of the woods and posing for all the pictures, I made a comment to Joe StCharles about being in a picture with a compound user and he replied " an arrow is an arrow" ....now I am a Traditional Archer and I believe the same way, yet there are limits.
A mechanical Broadhead will perform outstanding on deer sized or smaller animals at close range, but if the animal is large, thick skinned, and heavy boned, they wont perform anything close to a fixed blade.
...." WE have strayed a long way from the sound teachings of Young and Pope. The future of archery is in our hands and we had better get hold of our bootstraps and pull "  *Fred Bear
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 12:04:39 AM by STIKNSTRINGBOW »
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Offline timmyg

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2009, 06:31:32 AM »
Ray does things the hard way, the Ray way.  Any update on Mr. Barta?  Stik, some pretty good points to ponder.  I think everyone is a little fired up with pent up energy for September to get here.  Hopefully this Bow forum will be filled with pictures and stories of fun and success soon.  Keep them flying in the mean time.

Offline Ray

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2009, 07:05:18 AM »
I'd be convinced that mechanicals should be legal if they performed well on a moose. Until then I will never advocate for them. It's not an opinion that they fail to open, are weaker and have deficiencies which make them less than stellar.

Offline Lowedog

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #110 on: August 25, 2009, 07:18:35 AM »
Again, I am not arguing for or against mechanicals.  I am just stating that a person should be more open minded than to think that one way is better than another. 

-Lowedog
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Offline boneaddict

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2009, 07:34:16 AM »
Quote
Just to add my   
 Archery seasons exist today due to the actions of some great men back when bows were considered nothing more than toys for target archery. They had to buy tags and go during rifle seasons. A good shot could put all his arrows into a target at incredible distances even by today's standards, they called it a York Round. They still didn't harvest many animals and were a very small minority. The successful ones shot bows in the 60-70# range with heavy arrows.  It took Sportsmen like Chester Stevenson, Fred Bear, and Glenn StCharles to bring archery to the attention of the game departments and general public to make it acceptable as a viable weapon for big game. It took several years before they got any respect at all. Success rates were dismal because they (the majority) did not realize that you needed to get closer to the game for the broadhead to perform its job correctly.We will be forever indebted to these pioneers in our sport.
If we continue using everything out there to "modernize" archery we will no longer have the privilege of separate seasons.
If we don't quit arguing amongst ourselves about petty little things like equipment preferences, we are going to get blind-sided AGAIN by the game department in favor of the Muzzleloaders and Modern Firearms, You don't hear them arguing about using a .223 for elk, even though I am sure you could kill one with it, and at amazing distance!
You owe it to the game you pursue to use equipment that will perform AND ensure a quick clean kill I don't care how good of a shot you are at the range, when you put hair and a heartbeat on it EVERYTHING changes.

..."The archer may or may not have improved his accuracy at long distances, but most certainly, perhaps unknowingly, has reduced the killing power of his weapon. This fact was bourne out by some recent experiments conducted in our shop, proving definately that arrow weight has more bearing on killing power than does bow weight. For instance, it was dicovered that a 45 pound bow shot a 400 grain arrow with more striking energy (which means better penetrating power) than a 300 grain arrow shot from a 63 pound bow. The meaty part of the whole story is the fact that if an archer shooting light weight arrows did make a hit, unless it was made in the body cavity where no heavy bone was encountered, he probably wont get his deer"
 ..The preceding statement is surprising in that it is the words of Fred Bear in 1942 and long before the "improvements" of modern bows.



......I started bowhunting with a compound and was still using one when during an elk hunt after helping me gut and drag a spike out of the woods and posing for all the pictures, I made a comment to Joe StCharles about being in a picture with a compound user and he replied " an arrow is an arrow" ....now I am a Traditional Archer and I believe the same way, yet there are limits.
A mechanical Broadhead will perform outstanding on deer sized or smaller animals at close range, but if the animal is large, thick skinned, and heavy boned, they wont perform anything close to a fixed blade.
...." WE have strayed a long way from the sound teachings of Young and Pope. The future of archery is in our hands and we had better get hold of our bootstraps and pull "  *Fred Bear

NICELY PUT!

Offline Lowedog

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2009, 08:10:20 AM »

..."The archer may or may not have improved his accuracy at long distances, but most certainly, perhaps unknowingly, has reduced the killing power of his weapon. This fact was bourne out by some recent experiments conducted in our shop, proving definately that arrow weight has more bearing on killing power than does bow weight. For instance, it was dicovered that a 45 pound bow shot a 400 grain arrow with more striking energy (which means better penetrating power) than a 300 grain arrow shot from a 63 pound bow. The meaty part of the whole story is the fact that if an archer shooting light weight arrows did make a hit, unless it was made in the body cavity where no heavy bone was encountered, he probably wont get his deer"
 ..The preceding statement is surprising in that it is the words of Fred Bear in 1942 and long before the "improvements" of modern bows.

This statement got me wondering.

All things being equal except poundage and arrow weight here is what you would get...

Using an archery program that calculates speed and energy I placed the bows IBO speed at 220fps which I believe is probably close for a recurve.

so this bow set at 45# and a 28" dl would shoot a 400 grain arrow at 128.33 fps with 14.63 ft lbs of energy

Same bow set at 63 lbs and 300 grain arrow would get 197.67 fps and 26.03 ft lbs of energy.

Something to think about...

-Lowedog
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Offline Ray

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2009, 08:13:16 AM »
Read the Ashby studies. It's not just about energy and speed. He points that out clearly.

Be careful reading because those studies are opinions just like it's an opinion that Clinton didn't have sexual relations with Lewinsky  :tung:

I recommend reading this page - http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Ashby-On-Arrow-Lethality-Part-4-W23.aspx

Then this one - http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Ashby-On-Arrow-Lethality-Part-5-W18.aspx

Here are some quotes from other pages in his study.

Quote
Kinetic energy is NOT the correct unit of measure for calculating ANY of the forces relevant to penetration. It is applicable for calculating neither the force of a moving object; the disposable net force at impact; the net force at exit; net force consumed during penetration; the applied impulse; nor the resistance impulse force affecting penetration.

Quote
Kinetic energy does not enter directly into any of the calculations relating to penetration. THE KINETIC ENERGY CARRIED BY AN ARROW AT IMPACT HAS NO DIRECT BEARING ON ITS ABILITY TO PENETRATE.

Quote
Kinetic energy IS applicable for calculating the mechanical efficiency of one’s bow.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:29:13 AM by Ray »

Offline Lowedog

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2009, 09:26:30 AM »
Interesting reading.  Note that the copyright on those articles are from 1996. 

In order to reach the momentum factors he states in his article with traditional bows a person would have to be drawing an unrealistic poundage. 

For example:  to push a 740 grain arrow at 160 ft per second using the Martin Venom with an IBO rating of 280fps, with a 28" draw you would have to be pulling 88lbs to reach 161fps with a momentum factor of .529. 

So, let's take my Bowtech Guardian with an IBO of 325fps and give it a 28" draw (I shoot 29.5").  It only takes a 70lb draw weight and a 430 grain arrow at 273fps to achieve the same results with a momentum factor of .5219. 

Here is some realistic testing for you.
feature=related  I by no means support this product but I like the testing procedure they use.  Shows that you don't need to be throwing a log at an animal to penetrate bones.

Taking the point of view of the person who helped design and the product is named after is hard for me to do.  I accept all forms of archery hunting.

-Lowedog
"Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal."
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Offline Ray

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2009, 09:31:49 AM »
The copyright is from 1996 but he has been updating and making new reports to current date and they are available. He still stands by the concepts.

He has some very specific examples regarding the mechanicals in his latest report. I mentioned this earlier.

Basically a 60lb compound bow shooting a mechanical could not penetrate tissue as well as a longbow at 40lbs shooting a conventional broadhead.

The in depth studies and open reports pretty much speak for themselves. He doesn't work for any of the manufacturers so discrediting him on those accounts will not work. He makes no money from products named after him.

Offline tlbradford

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2009, 09:37:52 AM »
Lowedog,  What you are looking at is energy produced on impact, not sustained energy during penetration.  What you are comparing is great for energy at impact (and for measuring the mechanical efficiency of your bow, like Ray stated earlier), but the forces that the arrow meets when continuing into an animal will slow a lighter arrow, much more quickly than a heavy arrow.

Dreams are forever on the mind, realization in the hands.

Offline Lowedog

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2009, 09:43:03 AM »
Lowedog,  What you are looking at is energy produced on impact, not sustained energy during penetration.  What you are comparing is great for energy at impact (and for measuring the mechanical efficiency of your bow, like Ray stated earlier), but the forces that the arrow meets when continuing into an animal will slow a lighter arrow, much more quickly than a heavy arrow.



Read the articles by Dr Ashby where he states that it is momentum that equates to penetration.  I posted momentum figures on both of my examples. 

I can email you guys this archery program.  It is very cool.  Using it over a chrono with a few different bows has shown it to be very accurate. 

-Lowedog
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Offline Ray

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2009, 09:45:16 AM »
Speed is not the sole factor. I think that is the point which is supported by facts in the studies. You need a good broadhead which will not fall apart to penetrate well.

Offline robb92

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Re: Mechanical Broadheads
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2009, 03:30:21 PM »
They are legal for me to use on btoh Maryland and VA, I use them over fixed blades, I shot a doe at 8 feet with my bow tipped with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy right in the boiler room and never found her, I looked for the rest of the day and into the next day, I went out and bought some mechanicals and have never lost a deer with them yet. Here is a nice pics from a doe I shot 2 years ago.
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