It's great to have friends

[bow4elk]

A few things to add.  Correct me if I am wrong but 180 grain's statement is true regarding the state record book.  Boone & Crockett does not have a classification for cascade blacktails.  There are simply columbian blacktails and sitka blacktails.  I also believe that there are no field photos REQUIRED to enter an animal in the book.  If he had submitted a photo and cropped out the ass, we would not be having this conversation.  As bow4elk, stated all the measurers would see the tail/rump and call this deer a muley.   I think we all need to keep in mind that there are a lot of official B & C scorers that have neither seen nor scored a blacktail and would simply use B & C boundary descriptions to clarify if or not is is indeed a blacktail.  I know a couple of scorers that have never hunted a day in their lives.  They are antler collectors and that is why they become official scorers.  My point is that just because someone is an official B & C scorer, it doesn't make him an expert in mule deer/blacktail classification.  Bow4elk would definately be an exception.  I would be willing to be that a lot of folks on here know as much or more than the average scorer.  That being said, it is a hell of a buck.  I would call it a blacktail, get is scored in 60 days and let B & C decide what they want to do.  The rest is history,

True - NW Big Game, Inc. http://www.nwbiggame.com/ (publishes the state books for WA, OR, ID, MT) does indeed have a Cascade Blacktail classification.  The Boone and Crockett Club does not, however.  But, it is a widely known fact that deer don't care about boundaries, and that deer population dynamics vary depending on many factors.  And it is true that there are a number or official measurers around who don't hunt, and many more that are not informed about Blacktails.  "Benchlegs", as they are commonly referred, are the result of cross-breeding between mule deer and blacktails.  Bucks may display characteristics of both species or heavily weighted one way or the other.  The B&C Records Program has this to say about Mule Deer, Sitka, and Columbian Blacktail Deer:

The problem of properly defining the boundary between the large antlered mule deer, which ranges widely over most of the western third of the United States and western Canada, and its smaller relatives, the Columbia and Sitka blacktails of the West Coast, has been difficult from the beginning of the records keeping. The three varieties belong to the same species and thus are able to interbreed readily where their ranges meet. The intent of the Club in drawing suitable boundary lines is to exclude intergrades from each of the three categories. These boundaries have been redrawn as necessary, as more details have become known about the precise ranges of these animals.

Also, if you consider Scott Haugen's new book, he outlines the five variations of the Columbian Blacktail, speaking to these points.  I've read his book and have found his science-based account very informative.  I highly recommend it, especially for those following this thread.  (By the way, he just got back from AK where he killed a big brown bear, and will be doing some late season blacktail seminars in at the new Wholesale Sports (formerly Sportsmen's Warehouse) stores...will be in Burlington at 2 pm on Nov. 7, Federal Way on Nov. 10 at 6:30 pm and on Nov. 11 at 6:30 pm in Vancouver)

I stand by my assessment that it will be up to the physical location of the kill and the B&C determination of specie.  It's an awesome buck, regardless.

[Pathfinder101]

Great buck! 

[andrew_12gauge]

Look at my buck and then look at the poached deer in oregon.They look the same.


                                    Mike

unfortunately we have no tail pics of the deer poached in oregon, your buck has a mule deer tail not a typical cross tail, dont get all worked up nobody is questioning that it is a nice buck for either species

[DOUBLELUNG]

There is no question that legally it is a blacktail.  And, there is no question that it is a heck of a nice buck! 

The latest rangewide genetics work pretty clearly shows that during the last glacial period, and perhaps previous ones too, that constant isolation allowed the single species to differentiate.  Since the end of the last ice age, there has been some interbreeding. 

It is unlikely there are any truly genetically pure members of the subspecies, after at least 12,000 generations of deer post-isolation; a good geneticist will likely find a small amount of O.h.h. post-glacial DNA in every animal from the blacktail range sampled, and conversely a small (and I'd bet larger) amount of O.h.c. post-glacial DNA in O.h.h. from across the range.  I've seen mule deer with blacktail traits in eastern Wyoming: browner coats, shorter ears, dark stripe down the tail (I've given affidavits on a few of these, where they were shot in whitetail-only seasons and the defense was claiming they were mule deer-whitetail hybrids; they were not, they were pure Odocoileus hemionus).

Here's the abstract from the March 2009 Molecular Biology, for those who care to read the science:

Mol Ecol. 2009 Apr;18(:1730-45. Epub 2009 Mar 19.

Species-wide phylogeography of North American mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus): cryptic glacial refugia and postglacial recolonization.
Latch EK, Heffelfinger JR, Fike JA, Rhodes OE Jr.

Department of Biological Sciences, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, 3209 N. Maryland Ave., Milwaukee, WI 53211, USA. latch@uwm.edu

Quaternary climatic oscillations greatly influenced the present-day population genetic structure of animals and plants. For species with high dispersal and reproductive potential, phylogeographic patterns resulting from historical processes can be cryptic, overshadowed by contemporary processes. Here we report a study of the phylogeography of Odocoileus hemionus, a large, vagile ungulate common throughout western North America. We examined sequence variation of mitochondrial DNA (control region and cytochrome b) within and among 70 natural populations across the entire range of the species. Among the 1766 individual animals surveyed, we recovered 496 haplotypes. Although fine-scale phylogenetic structure was weakly resolved using phylogenetic methods, network analysis clearly revealed the presence of 12 distinct haplogroups. The spatial distribution of haplogroups showed a strong genetic discontinuity between the two morphological types of O. hemionus, mule deer and black-tailed deer, east and west of the Cascade Mountains in the Pacific Northwest. Within the mule deer lineage, we identified several haplogroups that expanded before or during the Last Glacial Maximum, suggesting that mule deer persisted in multiple refugia south of the ice sheets. Patterns of genetic diversity within the black-tailed deer lineage suggest a single refugium along the Pacific Northwest coast, and refute the hypothesis that black-tailed deer persisted in one or more northern refugia. Our data suggest that black-tailed deer recolonized areas in accordance with the pattern of glacial retreat, with initial recolonization northward along a coastal route and secondary recolonization inland.

[Axle]

The latest rangewide genetics work pretty clearly shows that during the last glacial period, and perhaps previous ones too, that constant isolation allowed the single species to differentiate.  Since the end of the last ice age, there has been some interbreeding.

This would explain why things happened the way they did between humans after Snoqualmie and Stephens pass opened up.

I've got to warn my kids!

All joking aside - this is good info. Thanks

[fish affender]

that thing is awsome Mike. good job

[Kowsrule30]

NICE BT!!!

[DOESLICKER]

Whats the gross bone pyle score settler

[DOESLICKER]

148 is my 

[DOESLICKER]

IM GOING NUTS WHATS THE SCORE DUDES SOMEONE HAS TO KNOW

[Track-er]

Waiting the 60 day drying period to get it scored.


                               Mike

[Pathfinder101]

Waiting the 60 day drying period to get it scored.


                               Mike

Seriously?  Of course I would wait 60 days for an official score, but I think I would put a tape on him myself for an "un-official score", just to see what he rings in at...

[Track-er]

I thought I had someone lined up to give me an official score but the guy said he's busy all month so I will have to wait for the Sportsman Show at Puyallup.


                       Mike

[Skyvalhunter]

I will rough score him at 129 6/8 for you!!

[hoytem]

 :drool:unreal