Help me with this Dog!

[Small_Savage]

Hi everyone, I am having an issue with an English Springer Spaniel.  I more or less "inherited" the dog, I hadn't spent much time with him for a couple of years (he's 6) and I have found that he has changed.  A couple of years ago, he was a joy to hunt behind.  He ran all day and he was obedient.  He also didn't mind being around my other dogs. 

A lot has changed.  He has developed aggression issues that are difficult to deal with (I have border collies that I have to keep separate now, the springer attacks them).  The springer has been growly with me a few times and I definitely do not trust him around strangers or children.  I have taken him out a couple times to see what he naturally does anymore in the field and he sure doesn't listen as well as he used to.  He still seems motivated to flush, but seems to want to do his own thing. 

The previous owner maintains that all of this "just happened", and their seeming lack of disclosure is keeping me from figuring out what to do with this dog.  The re-training shouldn't be the problem, but the aggressive behavior isn't something I am willing to compromise on.  He needs to shape up. 

I am open to any suggestions, as this dog is now my sole responsibility and all I have had to work with on my own are border collies, and they sure don't hunt.  They like homerun derby, and that I can handle on my own

Thanks.

[runamuk]

you might want to read this article about springer rage and what is and isn't considered rage syndrome.  Just a thought.

http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm

[Grizzly95]

i had a Springer that changed like that, we tried working with him more and more, but he continued to get more aggressive. In his defense he did get hit by a car and suffered a nasty head injury, thats when it started. I have owned several springers and that was the only one that did that. Eventually he escaped and drank some anti-freeze, by the time we got to the vet it was too late.

[Small_Savage]

Thanks for the article- that makes a lot of sense, and runs along the lines of what I thought the problem was. 

I had heard of other springers becoming this way but had never dealt with it.  Not having been around the dog that much in the last few years has made the changes extremely apparent. 

[Machias]

Just my 2 cents, with hounds if they were ever agressive towards humans or dogs they were put down.  Did not matter if they were a good hunting dog or not.

[Small_Savage]

I have never kept around a growly dog, either, when they become more of a liability.  That's what I worry about with this one.  There are a lot of kids in my neighborhood, too. 

Does anyone have a good resource or contact information for anyone that might want this dog?  Someone that has the time and ability to work with it?  Any further suggestions? 

[Grizzly95]

Try the Springer rescue group, just be upfront and honest with them.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Just my 2 cents, with hounds if they were ever agressive towards humans or dogs they were put down.  Did not matter if they were a good hunting dog or not.

It's tough, but a mean dog can not get two chances.  I would be sure to try to get him to show (put a hand near his food?) and be a little rough on the dog if he showed any aggression.  Get after him and let him know that growly behavior will turn out badly for him.

[Small_Savage]

When he gets aggressive towards me, I submit him by holding him down by his neck on the floor for a bit.  He chills out for awhile after that.  I don't even have to press down hard, he seems to understand and he lays there as long as I am willing to hold my hand there.  Obviously I can't make everyone do this to him, though.

[whitey]

I have had 2 put down 2 great hunting dogs down because they couldn't get along with other dogs.Zero tolerance for mean dogs regardless of Who's dog it is.

Speaking of mean dogs this dumpass let His Pit bull loose while I was working Harley on bumpers.The dog chews the *censored* out of Harley and Me both. We both received multiple stitches.I took them both for a swim.I had the pitbull by its ears and held them both under water. The pitbull couldn't hold his breath as long as Harley could and released Harley.I just forgot to release the Pitbull.
The vet bill was over a $1000.00 and Mine was real close to that (I had insurance,Thank God).
They (The State) pressed charges on the Guy.3 of them to be exact.Court Dec 9.Throw his dump a$$ in the tank.

So I am sorry about Your dog,But You just might have to take him on His last hunt.It is tough.
Good luck finding away to correct this problem..
Whitey.

[Small_Savage]

Sentimental value is probably the hardest part about this, but I have a feeling he's going to be "riding the needle" here pretty quick.

Thanks for the advice, I don't feel like such an A$$hole anymore.

[TEX-X]

any dog that has ever showed aggression towards me or the family tasted lead....  there is no excuse to put up with it....  and being aggressive with other dogs is a bad thing.... next time he gets in a fight grab him by the back legs and spin him in 5 or 6 fast circles... then let him down... might work... just a little wisdom taken from Delmar smith...

[Rowdy]

Too much risk and too many good dogs out there to waste the time, money and effort needed for a dog like this.  This dog sounds like it might have some health issues.  Regardless sounds like a high risk dog.

Disclaimer: it's just my opinion of what has been written but in my home there is ZERO tolerance for aggression towards people and especially myself.  I also have a VERY LIMITED tolerance for aggresion towards other dogs, depending on what the scenario is.  A hunting dog should have a strong bond with it's owner/handler and a good understanding of who the boss is.  

My two cents,
Jake

[Small_Savage]

I am so glad I found this site.  I am a girl, so most of my friends (chicks) have totally freaked out that I'd be "sending this dog to an early grave" and "why can't you send him to someone like Cesar?!"... yeah... the dog whisperer. 

Thanks for the help once again.  I don't come from a family of hunters, either, so I'm glad to have a community that I can relate to when it comes to this stuff.

Has anyone had trouble with a German Shorthair like this?  I'm very interested in them.  I have gone hunting behind one and he was great. 

[TEX-X]

I have three german shorthairs and i love them....  but mind you they are extreme athletes and if they are not worked... or at least excercised at least three times a week they get antsy....  but mine are very well mannered for the simple fact is yard training and obedience training is the first thing i focus on and i focus on it for a long time before i actually move on to working with birds...whoa training etc.  My dogs will do anything i ask of them... being a versatile dog they point and retrieve... and cover alot of ground in the process...

[Small_Savage]

I'm no stranger to athletic, energetic dogs that seemingly need to be in constant motion.  With two border collies that I raised when I was living in an apartment, it was a task unto itself.  I had to take each dog running every day, and both to the park.  People probably have it easier with newborn babies than with two border collies in an apartment. 

The energy level of the German Shorthair is definitely one of the reasons that I was drawn to them.  If hunting wasn't happening, the Springer was kind of a dud in the personality department.  He'd jump up and run around the house if you waved a pheasant feather around his face when he was sleeping, though.

[Machias]

It's a real bummer.  I had a plott hound a few years ago.  Awesome looking dog and very gritty with bears, lion and coons.  Super fast dog.  Problem was on the tree he would select a spot and that was it, no one else could go near his spot.  I had to put him down, broke my heart as he had alot of potential.  Small Savage, I know it's a hard decision, one thing, no way would I pay a vet $50-$100 to put a growly dog down when I could do it myself quickly and humanely for .10 cents.

[Rowdy]

I am so glad I found this site.  I am a girl, so most of my friends (chicks) have totally freaked out that I'd be "sending this dog to an early grave" and "why can't you send him to someone like Cesar?!"... yeah... the dog whisperer. 

Thanks for the help once again.  I don't come from a family of hunters, either, so I'm glad to have a community that I can relate to when it comes to this stuff.

Has anyone had trouble with a German Shorthair like this?  I'm very interested in them.  I have gone hunting behind one and he was great. 

Shorthairs are awesome dogs.  If your gonna get one, do your homework and make sure you get one from good lines.  There are a ton of shorthairs out there and they will do just about anything.  Check out the parents and make sure the breeder hunts.  If you want any info feel free to PM me.

Jake

[TEX-X]

hey rowdy who did you get your pups through?   Rowdy makes a very good point... buy from reputable breeders.. it might cost you more in the beginning but it'll work out better later on

[Small_Savage]

Thanks for all the help and advice.  The deed has been done and the Springer is no longer with us.  

I am, however, looking forward to the possibilities with a new dog, from what I have researched so far I believe I will be going with a German Shorthair, they seem to be the best match for me.

[TEX-X]

smart choice...  keep us updated on your dog search... if you have any questions...ask and i'll try and help

[Rowdy]

hey rowdy who did you get your pups through?   Rowdy makes a very good point... buy from reputable breeders.. it might cost you more in the beginning but it'll work out better later on

My pup's Ped is Shooting Star and Saddle Tramp.  Came from Wisconsin.  Hell of a dog, IMO 

Jake

[Clumber]

Late to the party, but wanted to add that IMHO you did the exact right thing.  No one, and I mean NO ONE loves their dogs or even dogs in general more than I do... and that is exactly why I am quicker with the "silver needle" than some are.  BTW I am also a "chick".  Dogs are widely believed now to be the 1st critter that humans domesticated, even before sheep/goats.  They are now hundreds and hundreds of years hard-wired to be in deference to humans.  A dog that shows aggressiveness toward humans is not only dangerous and untrustable, but unhappy as well.  There are simply far too many good dogs out there, and far too few good homes.

I am amazed at what Cesar Millan accomplishes, and I respect him for it... but honestly, I would not recommend or condone giving some of those dogs another chance.  Might be my weakness, might be their owners'.    YMMV

And just to give you some ammo in the future, when people start getting all stupid and cushy and saying *censored* like "My dog is just like my child!" my response is "No he is not.  I can prove it.  If my dog attacks your child, I will put my dog down.  If your child attacks my dog, will you do the same?  No?   Then the dog is not the same as your child."  Oh yeah, I'm way popular with these types of folks.  MWAHAHAHAHA!

I wish peace to the soul of your ESS, and to those who loved him.  He was not happy being like that.  Springers and all hunting dogs WANT to work for and be adored by their humans.  You did him a big favor, and good luck on your next dog.  Even the right thing to do can be the hardest thing to do.

~ tracy

PS if you are on the west side, i know several field and showbred but hunting ESS breeders through the club MRSSA - Mt. Rainier Sporting Spaniel Assoc.  PM me if you would like some contacts.

[Sportfury]

Small Savage,

Shorthairs and Wirehairs are awesome dogs.

Sofie my GWP now 1



Deke GSP last year at 7

[Small_Savage]

Thanks for the pictures!  Now I'm just getting excited for a new adventure with a new dog, and new good hunting memories. 

Clumber- Tracy-  Thanks for the post.  You rock.

[whitey]

Sorry about the whole thing.
My Last 2 dogs got creamed by the train.
This is thier replacement.
Sometimes good comes from bad.It did for Me.

[mad-bomber]

i am nowhere near being called a trainer but i have trained 3 labs with "loves and treats"! they are all on hand signals while hunting and blind retrieves. my newest pups is a chocalate female and in 1 hotdog i taught her to sit and stay. 7 ritzs crackers and she was laying down. i would try to give the dog treats when he runs with the other dogs.put their food together and make them eat next to each other if the dog growls at the other dog say "NO!" and put him in the kennel. always reward everytime he does something good. do not hit him that will only make matters worse.you got to make the know they can trust you and you are happy with them when they do good. i have 5 buddies with hunting dogs that use the spank the but and shock coller deal and they suck! you want your dog to want to do what you say not do it becuase if they dont their going to get beat! im sure some of you have a dog that gets the old whack for doing something wrong and still is a good dog but i guarantee i could train them without the hitting. just my two cents.

[TEX-X]

IMO the electronic collar is a very good training tool... as long as the dog is collar conditioned properly... honestly if dogs that were trained with it SUCK... the greats like the smiths and so on would not have put as many trial wins under their belt.  i know you said you have labs.... but coming from a person who has trained versatile shorthairs... there is no better way of correcting an infraction when the dog is 2-3 or even 400 yards out... at least not that i know of...  in your personal opinion mad-bomber how would you go on correcting a dog that creeps on point when you are 300 yards away... Whoa means whoa... if they don't come to a staunch point when they hit the scent cone they are going to get corrected...

[TEX-X]

now i do agree that there are two types of dogs... introverts and extroverts....  the use of the shock collar may not be necessary when you are dealing with an introvert.....  but get your hands on an extrovert pointer and tell me the electronic collar is not necessary

[Machias]

The problem is not the shock collars, it's the fingers on the buttons.  Many a dog has been ruined by the guy holding the transmitter.  There is a proper way to use them and ALOT of guys have no clue.

[TEX-X]

i agree... collar conditioning should be as big of a part in training a gun dog as anything...

[mad-bomber]

no i mean the finger on the collar.most guys new to hunting dogs and training like to hit the "SMOKE MODE" button all the time. i have one for my black lab because he likes to chace cows.but after 3 hits all he needs now is a tone. and for the creeping train him not to at 10 yds from you and once he gets it he wont do it at 300yds! im not picking a fight but really guys how did are fathers and grandfathers train good hunting dogs? there wasnt shock collers around.

[TEX-X]

no no  i wasn't picking a fight either...  i was just throwing my two cents in...  I am nowhere near a pro trainer... but i do okay... i like having an electronic collar... but very rarely now do i use the nick or constant button... i do have a tone that i use as well....  and as far as grandfathers and fathers training... my old man used a sling shot and the bouncy rubber balls to correct with a dog out a little ways....

[Rowdy]

The good ol' E-Collar debate.

I use an E-Collar on my pup.  He wears it at all times outside of my property/house.  The most important part of the E-collar is training the handler and then conditioning the pup to it.  I've said before and I'll say it again, my pup damn near jumps out of his skin with excitement when he see's the E-collar and he backs his ass right up to me so I can put it on him.  Why does he react his way?  Because he knows it means we are going to have some fun BUT he was properly conditioned and I was very careful with how and when it was used. 

Can you train a pup without one, absolutely! 

Personally, I feel an E-collar makes my pup a whole lot safer when hunting or just out and about and that is worth it's weight in gold.

If someone is too stupid to use the collar properly, then they're probably too stupid to have a well trained dog.  I've seen some really nice finished dogs that have never had an e-collar around their neck.  I will honestly say that at this point it is rarely used for any type of training for my pup but instead used for safety measures (chasing off-game, railroads, roads, barbwire fences, etc...)

To each thier own.  It is a tool and like all tools needs to be used properly.

Jake

[Small_Savage]

I love it when posts take on a life of their own like this one sure has.

E-collars are invaluable in terms of safety.  Keep in mind that great-grandfathers and grandfathers also didn't have the added safety risks that we have around today, like busy roads, electric fences, etc.  Dogs have no concept of those risks until they've have a bad experience with them.

 

[steen]

The most important use of the e-collar for us is when the dog is out of sight and she goes on point.  Bingo we knowshe is on point cause the tones speed up.  We hunt release sights in W Washington and there is alot of brush in the trees and that is where the real hunting is.  The dog goes in and finds the bird and we don't have to go in until we know there is a bird.  Yeah, I know alot of you think release sights have dumb birds but you may have hunted them the morning after release night.  We wait til they have been scattered and educated by other hunters and then go find them.  It is the funnest excersise you can get.  It is expensive to go eastside for us and we can do this any day work is slow, just a half hour drive.  We have a Red Setter and she is a great dog and rides everywhere my husband goes including work.  She is going to be a grandma around Christmas time and we look forward to the pups.  We are just debating whether or not to keep one of these or wait til we breed her.  Tough decision cause she is 5 now and another to start now would be perfect.  Good luck finding a new puppy.  Sorry about your loss.

[Small_Savage]

Thank you for the advice and the condolences!  I'm looking forward to starting over with a new dog and looking forward to having my own dog to hunt behind again.  I've never trained one up on my own and it seems to be a monumental task. I have a lot to learn.