Possible changes for Montana....

[seth30]

I bet once you plug a speed goat the drive is well worth it.

[bobcat]

Are deer B tags going up to?

I was wondering the same thing. I was thinking about going to Montana next year on a doe hunt.

[RPM]

725 miles to bynum from castle rock, 12 to 14 hours depending on how much i stop on the way. thats 60 miles north of greatfalls. will be my third trip this year. i bought the combo tags the day our contract settled at work. it cost $140 just to hunt birds so its a very good value

[bearpaw]

Most hunting organizations opposed 161, but it easily passed by the will of Montana voters. I'm still not convinced the voters will see the benefits they think they will. I also remember Washington voters taking away cougar hunting and we all know how well that has worked. Game management at the ballot box does not have a very positive history.

This will have some affect on my business but will not break my business as I learned to diversify after the Washington cougar vote. I have the option of putting my hunters who do not draw MT tags onto Idaho tags, Washington tags, or Utah CWMU tags. But many resident outfitters who only outfit in Montana will lose a substantial amount of business.

I had an interesting discussion with a motel owner who said he voted against 161. Several outfitters keep clients at his motel and he figures it will hurt his fall business as many do-it-yourself hunters stay in camps and campers and not in motels. He figures less business for motels, restaurants, gift shops and all their employees. My landowners also voted against it, they figure they will lose money. The one motel owner said that the same thing has happened with Montanas natural resources, people wanted stricter rules, now all the mining companies have moved to other states and the Montana economy and jobs have suffered. He figures in the end it is a mistake for Montana to turn away the business that has been brought in by outfitter sponsored licenses.

I guess only time will tell if this was smart or not so smart of a move by the voters. One thing is for sure, the people who wanted to hurt their resident outfitters have certainly won.

[huntnnw]

U can almost gurantee that there will be left over MT combos this year at $900 a whack, last year there was left over combos at $670. I dont see how you will lose bizz, anyone who wants to hunt MT will

[bearpaw]

U can almost gurantee that there will be left over MT combos this year at $900 a whack, last year there was left over combos at $670. I dont see how you will lose bizz, anyone who wants to hunt MT will

Maybe it will work out that way, but I still like the old system, my hunters, many who wanted to keep the overall cost down could apply for the inexpensive draw tag and draw every 2 or 3 years, the guys who didn't mind spending the extra dollars could get the guranteed license and their extra dollars paid for the block management program. Now everyone pays more and shares in the expense of the block management program and everyone still has to draw. Seems like we all lost something and have only one option now, and that's to PAY MORE.

As an outfitter I couldn't buy my own outfitter sponsored tags and didn't want to most years as I need to be cost conscious myself. Now it will cost me more to apply, so even from an individual standpoint it seems like a losing proposition to me, but it's just something we all obviously have to live with now if we want to hunt in Montana. 

[Pathfinder101]

I just got back from there.  A lot of bar talk about this law.  We'll see what happens (and if I can afford a tag next year).   

[bearpaw]

I wrote some legislators and have already gotten some feedback, some of them are very concerned about the impact I-161 may have on the state, they are getting letters from all over the country about the increased price, I expect some steps to be attepted legislatively to help ease this.

On a different note: I paid a pretty good sum of money to purchase my outfitting business in Montana from a resident. Now my investment has taken a 2/3 loss when the voters passed this law as 2/3 of my approved client use was for the oputfitter sponsored tags which have been eliminated. I still have time to try and somehow rebuild my business, but what about the Montana outfitters who are ready to retire and need to sell their business in order to retire. The voters pretty much just took away their whole retirement.

I also pointed out that the voters pretty much took away any incentive any other non-resident businessman would have for investing in a Montana hunting business. I know that I certainly would have invested in a Wyoming or Clorado business had I known the Montana voters could take away my business the way they did. 

While some people are rejoicing, others are wondering how they will earn a living or ever be able to retire. What has this country come to?

[huntnnw]

One thing I can agree on is MT will lose money in tag sales,alot of people will not pony up $900

[GoldTip]

I wrote some legislators and have already gotten some feedback, some of them are very concerned about the impact I-161 may have on the state, they are getting letters from all over the country about the increased price, I expect some steps to be attepted legislatively to help ease this.

On a different note: I paid a pretty good sum of money to purchase my outfitting business in Montana from a resident. Now my investment has taken a 2/3 loss when the voters passed this law as 2/3 of my approved client use was for the oputfitter sponsored tags which have been eliminated. I still have time to try and somehow rebuild my business, but what about the Montana outfitters who are ready to retire and need to sell their business in order to retire. The voters pretty much just took away their whole retirement.

I also pointed out that the voters pretty much took away any incentive any other non-resident businessman would have for investing in a Montana hunting business. I know that I certainly would have invested in a Wyoming or Clorado business had I known the Montana voters could take away my business the way they did. 

While some people are rejoicing, others are wondering how they will earn a living or ever be able to retire. What has this country come to?

Ok, OK, gonna play a bit of the devils advocate here.  Bearpaw, I like you and respect you, you seem like a good outfitter and that you do a lot for the hunting community, let's get that out of the way from the start.  But let's get one other thing straight as well, no other business in Montana has a GUARANTEE of business like the outfitters had, something my father did not have when he was outfitting and his business did just fine.  He didn't lease property and he guided on public ground and back then there were no guaranteed tags he had no problem filling his bookings.  Outfitters having guaranteed tags is no different than when a NR drives into Montana he is then directed to a specific hotel to stay at because all the Hotels are guaranteed a certain amount of business. Many, many outfitters did just fine for a long, long time before there were guranteed tags. 

Second, I would be willing to bet most if not ALL of your Montana clients were initially in the public drawing for tags, then when they didn't draw they bought the outfitter guaranteed tags.  These guys were drawing tags that I didn't draw to be able to go home and hunt with my family, then when they didn't get that tag, then and only then did they purchase their license through you.  I would only agree with the guaranteed tags if your business had to purchase them up front for five years.  No ands, if's or butts about it, these guaranteed tags allowed outfitters to lease property that normally would have been either hunted by the general public for nothing more than the price of asking. Also, you haven't necessarrily lost any clients at all, you've only lost the ones that don't happen to draw a tag.  There was no law passed saying you can't take just as many hunters as before, the law simply removed your ability to guarantee as many clients as you want that they will get tags.  With that loss of ability to guarantee as many clients as you may wish to take, your bets have to be hedged a bit more when it comes to just how much property you pay leases on up front.

Bearpaw, I in no way wish to see your business suffer, that is not what I am hoping for, being the son of a former outfitter I also have no qualms with guided hunters or with outfitters.  But the guaranteed tags goes against any and all forms of free trade in a marketplace that is not socialist.

[Special T]

BP the best thing you did was to diversify you locations so that one state or another cannot screw you.... Like this one or MT...  Your a smart busness man 

[Pathfinder101]

BP the best thing you did was to diversify you locations so that one state or another cannot screw you.... Like this one or MT...  Your a smart busness man 

I know he runs his operation in Washington, Idaho and Utah as well (at least, he may have others), but when a 1/4 of your business takes a hit like this, it's gonna hurt.

[400out]

It was always my goal to go hunt montana (especially while I'm young) I don't know that it will ever happen now 

[finnman]

I talked about this subject with the owner of the property we hunted on this year near the Musselshell river. He has another ranch of a few thousand acres up river that he leased to Flatwillow Outfitters, he got $4,000 for that ranch last year. He wasn't sure about this year, and he has some doubts as to next year. It is going to definately have an affact on the incomes of average households like his. He has cattle too, but he has an irrigation business also that keeps him working long hours.
I will pay the extra money but only if I am hunting GOOD ground with nice deer.

[bearpaw]

I wrote some legislators and have already gotten some feedback, some of them are very concerned about the impact I-161 may have on the state, they are getting letters from all over the country about the increased price, I expect some steps to be attepted legislatively to help ease this.

On a different note: I paid a pretty good sum of money to purchase my outfitting business in Montana from a resident. Now my investment has taken a 2/3 loss when the voters passed this law as 2/3 of my approved client use was for the oputfitter sponsored tags which have been eliminated. I still have time to try and somehow rebuild my business, but what about the Montana outfitters who are ready to retire and need to sell their business in order to retire. The voters pretty much just took away their whole retirement.

I also pointed out that the voters pretty much took away any incentive any other non-resident businessman would have for investing in a Montana hunting business. I know that I certainly would have invested in a Wyoming or Clorado business had I known the Montana voters could take away my business the way they did. 

While some people are rejoicing, others are wondering how they will earn a living or ever be able to retire. What has this country come to?

Ok, OK, gonna play a bit of the devils advocate here.  Bearpaw, I like you and respect you, you seem like a good outfitter and that you do a lot for the hunting community, let's get that out of the way from the start.  But let's get one other thing straight as well, no other business in Montana has a GUARANTEE of business like the outfitters had, something my father did not have when he was outfitting and his business did just fine.  He didn't lease property and he guided on public ground and back then there were no guaranteed tags he had no problem filling his bookings.  Outfitters having guaranteed tags is no different than when a NR drives into Montana he is then directed to a specific hotel to stay at because all the Hotels are guaranteed a certain amount of business. Many, many outfitters did just fine for a long, long time before there were guranteed tags. 

Second, I would be willing to bet most if not ALL of your Montana clients were initially in the public drawing for tags, then when they didn't draw they bought the outfitter guaranteed tags.  These guys were drawing tags that I didn't draw to be able to go home and hunt with my family, then when they didn't get that tag, then and only then did they purchase their license through you.  I would only agree with the guaranteed tags if your business had to purchase them up front for five years.  No ands, if's or butts about it, these guaranteed tags allowed outfitters to lease property that normally would have been either hunted by the general public for nothing more than the price of asking. Also, you haven't necessarrily lost any clients at all, you've only lost the ones that don't happen to draw a tag.  There was no law passed saying you can't take just as many hunters as before, the law simply removed your ability to guarantee as many clients as you want that they will get tags.  With that loss of ability to guarantee as many clients as you may wish to take, your bets have to be hedged a bit more when it comes to just how much property you pay leases on up front.

Bearpaw, I in no way wish to see your business suffer, that is not what I am hoping for, being the son of a former outfitter I also have no qualms with guided hunters or with outfitters.  But the guaranteed tags goes against any and all forms of free trade in a marketplace that is not socialist.

Goldtip everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I do feel you should have all your facts straight before you speak so strongly about an issue.

1.  In Montana hunters had to choose to apply for the outfitter license or choose to apply for the draw tag by Mar 15. You could not buy the outfitter after the draw unless their were undersubscribed outfitter tags. Most years that did not happen.

3.  The MT outfitter tags did not guarantee us business. Customers still had to choose to hunt with us and not with another outfitter. All it did was guarantee am tag for those who wanted to hunt with us and were willing to pay the high price tag price that supported the block management system for other hunters to enjoy.

2.  Idaho has an outfitters quota and landowner tags. Utah has landowner tags, over the counter tags, and governor tags. Washington has governor tags, some landowner tags, and unlimited over the counter tags. That is quaranteed business for anyone choosing to hunt with us. Montana now has the worst system for outfitters thanks to those voters who did not understand the issue. In Montana there is no way for a non-resident to get a gauranteed license unless they buy a governor tag. I almost forgot, I think landowners are quaranteed at least one non-resident license, is that going to be the next licensing issue for jealous voters to mess up. I am sure there are hunters on HUNTWA that get landowner permits, what do you think about scrapping that program?

4.  Goldtip, are you telling me that the hundreds of tax accountants are not guaranteed business by the state and federal government.  (just one example)

While I appreciate your opinion I hope you will try to get your facts straight in future posts. No ill intent meant with my remarks and none taken from your post, but I do think you have your facts a little mixed up on this issue.
Best Regards, Dale