Picking out a Lab for Waterfowl

[Michelle_Nelson]

I have been debating with myself for the last year or so on getting a Lab puppy to train for water fowl.  I have only ever had 1 other dow and she was a mixed mut foundling.  So I have no experaince training dogs and don't have a clue. 

The only person that I have the opertunity to talk to was a friend with a higher end dog with really good breeding.

So how do I go about picking out a puppy when I visit a breeder? I would like a puppy with a mellow temperment.  I have heard a few thing such as bring in duck wings with you to check their interest.  Let the breeder make the selection just tell them what you are looking for.  Which doesn't sound bad since I have never done it. 

How old befor you start woking with them?  What should you start with?  Are there any good books out there I can pic up and read? 

How old will the puppy be befor I can expect him/her to retrieve in water? 

Are there and breeders on this site that breed labs for waterfowl?  I would appreciate a PM.  Or any recomendations from members.  Money is tight right now so I am not sure when I will be able to get a dog.  I'd like to get one as soon as I can so they may be ready to hunt by next season.

[gasman]

I am no expert but had similar questions last year, and here is what i learned.

A good Breeder and Trainer can and Will help match a pup to you and your personality. Some require that they pick the pup for you but others will assist in the what they feel is the best pup for you.
If you are looking at a pup from a breeder but does not train, look at the pups for a while, observe there personality's. Bring a wing and see how they react, but remember, they may react good to a wing but its not a guarantee that the dog will be the best/or worst hunting dog.

I have one pup that is doing well in her training and the other is an airhead.

As fr books, look at as many books and videos as you can. Many peple use "Water Dogs" as there training tool, but i have a few different books i have read and videos i have watched to get all different points of view.

My suggestion is to see if you can find a trainer that is willing to train you to train your dog. Some will do it sme won't. If you can get a trainer to work with you it is much cheaper for you are only poping out the money a little at a time.

Hope this helps and feel free to ask me any ther questions you have, I went through the same thing recently.....

Pete

[Wa hunter]

p.m. sent

[ducksdoom12]

buy the book "water dog" by Richard A. Wolters. great book that will tell you everything you ever need to know about training a duck dog along with around what ages you should start different parts of the training. i used it to train my first lab and she turned out great!   as far as temerment i would go for a female they typically will be calmer and they are out there to hunt for you where as a male, often times is only out there to hunt for himself and as a result can be harder to train.

[Michelle_Nelson]

Yes ducksdoom12, my plan was to try and get a female. 

[PINTAIL]

get in contact with CORY TDF he has a great dog that he started training as a pup, he might have some good advice

[Joe_Hunter]

Michelle:
 Congrats on getting a lab puppy You'll find that they can be a challenge but well worth the investment in the end. Remember labs are a high energy breed and need allot of attention.
I will offer this advise
Go to a professional breeder to seek good assistance. There are allot of self proclaimed experts out there and You are the one that will have to live with this decision. I myself have my method of picking out a puppy and that's what works for me. I have a specific look that I want and specific markings and body type that suit my style of hunting.
I recently bought a pup and most breeders that are offering litters are pre-sold so act soon to get on a waiting list.

As far as training. Again seek advise from professional trainers not self proclaimed experts or the guy that says hey I know a guy that trained his own pup he knows everything 

Water Dog by Wolters is
This book will answer all your questions
Self proclaimed experts 

Good luck

[Michelle_Nelson]

I havn't gotten a puppy yet.  Still looking for a breeder.

[Joe_Hunter]

Michelle:

Give these folks a try
www.einet.net/review/20348-124626/Merganser_Labrador_Retrievers.htm · Cached page

I' have personally owned two labs from mergansers and a friend of mine will only breed with them. Champion bloodlines and bread for waterfowl.
I've trained all of my labs and have been into waterfowl for 25 years. You won't go wrong with this breeder. a little expensive but well worth it.

Joe

[CoryTDF]

Michelle,

I have worked with professional trainers and read both Water dog and Game Dog from Richard A. Wolters along with several other books. Self proclaimed as i may be. I do have a pretty solid water dog. Any advice i could give you would come from the pages of those books. I have learned a few tricks here and there but it's best to start with the books. If the pup is not responding to the methods in the books it's time to try something else. I had no desire or intentions of paying somebody else to raise my dog. I wanted to do it myself and i was fortunate enough to have a friend who trained hunting dogs for a living. He helped me along the way and i put in the hours and got a great dog in the end. I'm not going to win any trials but i grantee my dog is better trained than most of the dogs you see in the field. Although Joe Hunter and i do not get along. I will agree with some of what he said. Pay the money to get a dog from a reputable breeder. The money you pay up front will be saved in possible vet bills. Also, it's nice to have a dog that is breed to hunt not just walk around on Astro turf. The books he recommended are the same ones i used and i feel they are the most user friendly. You have seen the pictures from TDF on this forum most of the birds you have seen where at one time in the mouth of my dog. Professional I am not! Experienced duck hunter and dog owner I am. I feel that it is important to connect with your dog from day one. I could have paid the money and taken the easy way out and got a dog that  could do all kinds of neat tricks. For me my dog is my friend and i wanted to be the one teaching him to hunt, after all, it is me he will be hunting with. To answer your question i would get the books and read them. There is a section in the book that will give you some pointers on picking out a pup. It is not an exact science but i think the logic is sound. if you have any questions PM me i would be more than happy to help you out. Time and lots of love will be the best teaching tools. %80 of it is going to be teaching yourself how to teach your dog. That is the hardest part.

[lokidog]

ALL of Richard Wolters' books are great. 

A few weeks of training with a pro are well worth the money.  I had my golden ret. with a guy down by Longview and he did in a couple of weeks what would have taken me much longer.  Wish I could have done more with him.

[Michelle_Nelson]

Does anyone know or can recomend any breeders?  I know there are a few on here but can't remember there screen names.

[Joe_Hunter]

Sounds like we all agree, Reputable breeder, Professional Trainer and Richard Wolters if your going to attempt training on your own..........  Now all we need is a pup

Good Luck Michelle

Let's see some pics of your new pup when you get it.

[gasman]

Does anyone know or can recomend any breeders?  I know there are a few on here but can't remember there screen names.

I recomend Bryant and Cindy Meyer at Rocking M Retreivers http://www.rockingmlabs.com/

They are good poeple, and the ones i have been using to help me with my training.  
Good breeders as well as trainers.


Oh yeah, and this is on the site http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,37186.0/topicseen.html I talked with them also when looking for a chocolate, but ended up with a yellow for my daughter.

[Michelle_Nelson]

Do they have any clocolates?  Looks like all they had were yellow and black?

I am not against getting a yellow or black but I really like the looks of the chocolates.  Chocolate would be my first choice,Black, and than Yellow.

[gasman]

Do they have any clocolates?  Looks like all they had were yellow and black?

I am not against getting a yellow or black but I really like the looks of the chocolates.  Chocolate would be my first choice,Black, and than Yellow.

No Chocolates only Black and yellow.

Kings lab was there recomendation for chocolates to me. They sem to be good people, i have not met with them but have talked with them on the phone. Many people i have met with chocolate labs have recomended them to me. they have a champion dogs and very impresive blood line in there breeding. I did post a link to a thread they have n here in my last post but here is it again if you did nt see it.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,37186.0/topicseen.html

[NWBREW]

Michelle, I have owned 2 choc. labs and trained them both myself. As was mentioned on here earlier Wolter's book "Game Dog is the one I used to do it. Weather it's water dog or game dog  those are great books and you start training the pup right away. I would pick up a copy of one of those books first and read a little before you get the pup. If I could find my copy I would send it to you. Follow that book and you will be amazed.

Oh yeah.......get a choc. lab, they don't show the dirt and mud on them.  
Good luck and if I find the book I'll let you know.   Also so look at the bloodlines of the parents.....feild champions and such.

[Michelle_Nelson]

Thanks NWBREW.  I have had quite a few people tell me to look at the blood lines.  What am I looking for?  I have never bought a dog of any kind.  I have got a few links to several breeders but most are for Yellow and black.  Where did you get your pups?

[Ridgeratt]

don't know anything about him but he's on Craig's list

http://Spokane.craigslist.org/spo/1508644511.html

Having been a Golden Retriever person for more years than I can count. When I had litters of pups and could show 15 generations of linage on both my dogs. Along with OFA's, Eye Certs. Hip Clearances and Brucellious (sp) clearances. Also my dog trial result's I was amazed that it didn't make a tinkers darn to anyone but me! My pups were introduced to birds at 4 weeks and most of them went to people that only were going to have pets. I gave a health guarantee to the cost of the pup or a choice of another pup. My vet would open my dog's files to any person that was intrested in a pup. The one health problem that is unforeseen is cancer I lost my female to hip cancer and my Male was to Mast cell tumor's. But without a doubt the best brace of dog's I ever hunted behind.

[gasman]

I have had quite a few people tell me to look at the blood lines.  What am I looking for?  I have never bought a dog of any kind.  I have got a few links to several breeders but most are for Yellow and black.

Looking at the blood lines refers to looking at the past parents. Are they hunting dogs, field gogs pets. How is the medical of past parents, do they have issues with hips or any other disorded. '

Most good breeders will show you that there dogs have been medicaly tested and show to have no medical problems.

Look at the training, do the parents have JR, Master, SR, etc..... hunt test trails in there bloodline?

[NWBREW]

Thanks NWBREW.  I have had quite a few people tell me to look at the blood lines.  What am I looking for?  I have never bought a dog of any kind.  I have got a few links to several breeders but most are for Yellow and black.  Where did you get your pups?

I am not a dog expert by any means but this is what I saw when I bought mine. If they are registered (and they should be) the parents will have a family history tree that you can see. On it you can follow the parents of the pups and their parents and so on. In my case it listed feild champions and national champions and such next to the registered names of the dogs on both sides....(sire and dam). Any good breader would have records of their dogs I'm sure.

I wish I could remember who I got may lab from. It was back in 1991 and the dog is long gone now. Best dog I ever had. All I know is it was a private breeder in bellingham somewhere. I looked for the old papers on him but don't think I have them anymore.

[Wacenturion]

Thanks NWBREW.  I have had quite a few people tell me to look at the blood lines.  What am I looking for?  I have never bought a dog of any kind.  I have got a few links to several breeders but most are for Yellow and black.  Where did you get your pups?

Not only are you looking at the bloodlines on both sides, but the success of those individuals in it.  The first three generations are the ones that contribute to your pup.  How do those 14 individuals pass their genes on in a way to ensure your chances of having a great hunting dog?  How many have shown success...i.e. field champions, amateur, open, master hunter, etc?  

There's an old dog breeding phrase....

"Like begets like", which means your potential pup will not only have the desirable traits of it's parents and to a lesser extent Grandparents and great Grandparents, but also any undesirable ones.  What you want and why you pay a premium for exceptional bloodlines and breeding, is that you pretty much only get desirable traits as the breeder and his breeding program have eliminated the undesirable ones.  Hopes that makes sense.  When you consider a pup will be your companion in the blind, in the field and at home as a family member for it's lifetime, cost is really insignificant.  Somewhat like your profession........you get what you pay for in a trophy mount.

I would suggest you take your time and educate yourself and shop around.  Plenty of good lab breeders in the Puget Sound Area and eastern Washington.  Check into some of the local field trial clubs.....they also have fun trials, and you get lots of help and training tips from members, as well as a leads on good potential pups.  Color is a personal preference thing, although I perfer black.  One only has to attend field trials or look at the number of champions by color to see the black lab's obvious success.  That's due to the longer history and efforts on behalf of breeders in this country when compared to yellow or chocolate.  Don't get me wrong, they are all capable of being molded into great hunting dogs, but that is not only a result of breeding but the effort one dedicates to that dog.

Good luck...........it's a wonderful experience you're about to venture into.

[Wacenturion]

Here's a link to a bunch of kennels and breeders in the Northwest.  Do some looking and you start to get a feel for what you need to look for.  Enjoy.

http://www.pslra.org/html/breeders.htm


Forgot to mention..........the titles you want to see in those three generations are as I mentioned above, especially AFTC (Amateur Field Trial Champion) of FTC (Field Trial Champion), or Master Hunter, etc............seeing just Ch. in front of a name usually means show champion, as in conformation.  Nothing at all wrong with that if you want a pretty lab, but you won't get what you want in the field if your main purpose is a duck or upland dog. 

[gasman]

but you won't get what you want in the field if your main purpose is a duck or upland dog. 

What do you mean by your statement?

[Joe_Hunter]

gasman:
 I think what wacenturion means is that if you pick a show dog based on confirmation you may not get a good hunting dog.

[gasman]

gasman:
 I think what wacenturion means is that if you pick a show dog based on confirmation you may not get a good hunting dog.

I know this is the theary, but a dog is a dog is a dog.

My last lab was a pet, nothing more but a pet. he had a show dog in the blood line but no known huntng blood. He was the best hunting dog a person could ever ask for (up untill he was hit and killed by a car). even the best hunting dogs can put out a dog that has no will to hunt. Each dog has there own personality.

One day they will be top notch and the next they will look at you like, "you want me to do what", I know, because i have experanced it first hand 

Each dog is what you make of it.........

[NWBREW]

Gasman I think you are exactly right. I have heard people say that american labs are for hunting and the english labs are more for show. The two labs I had were both english labs....big block heads and thick stout bodys. The first lab turned out to be the best hunting dog a person could ask for but he also had champion bloodlines (field). I do believe some will do better than others but unless your going to go to field trials and such a good lab will do everything a hunter could ask for......if trained and I trained mine myself with just a book.

The second lab is still with me but was hit by a car when he was 1 1/2 years of age. He doesn't hunt due to injuries, just sleeps by the fireplace and barks when someone wakes him up.  He is 13 now. He also was very well trained with that book and would have been a great hunting dog. No champion anything in his bloodlines. You can train a lab for show or hunting...either way you will have a great addition to the family but training is the key. 

[Wacenturion]

A good hunting dog is a product of breeding and training.  A show dog is also a product of breeding and training, in a different sense...the show ring.  One's perception of a good hunting dog is just that, the owner's satisfaction with what his or her dog will do in the field.  Not how it measures up against the best of the breed.  I wasn't trying to knock someone's dog.  My intent was only to point out that one's chances of having a dog that with the right training will be what one hopes for, exponentially goes up with the right breeding and background.  Nothing more, nothing less.

There's lots of hunting dogs out there in the world, there's fewer really good dogs, and even fewer really great dogs.  Just the way it is.  A mediocre dog can be good with the right training, an exceptional dog can be ruined with wrong training.  To say that I have a dog with show blood or without the fancy bloodlines that does everything I ask of him is great, and rightfully so.  Be proud of him.  But to assume that dog is better than a dog from a long line of field trial or hunting titled dogs with years of trying to perfect the bloodlines to set desirable, trainable traits and exposed to the right training is a stretch, to be polite.

It comes down to what one wants out of a dog.  In the case of a duck dog, do you want the dog steady marking multiple ducks falling and not going till given the command.  Being able with a dog trained to be steady to direct him or her on a long blind retrieve to make sure you pick up a cripple rather than just jump in after birds laying in front of the blind dead.  Being trained to the whistle and stop on command and take hand signals to retrieve birds not seen.  It's all in the what satisfies the owner.  It takes time and the right dog that is bred to do what he is being trained for, to have a chance at being a truly exceptional dog, whether it's a retriever, bird dog, hound or otherwise.  Like I said before........lots of hunting dogs.  I'm sure you have all witnessed guys screaming at their dogs in the field because they won't respond to their wishes.  Are they hunting...you bet.  Are they good...I guess it depends on how you look at it.  

Again.......no offense intended.  

[Wacenturion]

Michelle............when you get to the point of purchase and you're dealing with making a choice out of a litter of pups, here's something I relied on for years in helping to make that decision.

Once you have decided on a pup of good breeding, there are some additional things you can do to help make the selection.  Those include watching littermates play and romp, judging dominance, aggressiveness, alertness etc.

One of my favorites is to take something along like a piece of cooked hamburger, chicken etc. in a zip lock and keep it in the rig until the pups are outside and have initially gotten over you being there.  In other words, now ignoring you somewhat and playing amongst themselves.  You can even get someone else to play with them to keep the attention off of you.  Get the burger, chicken, or whatever from the rig and get upwind from them at a fair distance....hopefully there is a slight breeze.  Move in say 5 feet at a time and squat down to their level until all of a sudden one or two heads pop up out of the play pile, smell the food and head your way.  PICK ONE OF THESE IF IT FITS YOUR OTHER REQUIREMENTS SUCH AS SEX ETC.

You can't train an "EXCEPTIONAL" nose....they either have it or they don't.  Although all the pups will probably have good noses, these "early smelling the bait little buggers" will wind birds much quicker and farther than the average hunting dog.  Pays immense dividends over their lifetime....believe me on this one...you won't regret it.   

[lokidog]

WA Cent is correct in that having good blood lines doesn't guarantee an exceptional hunting dog, nor does not having a high brow pedigree guarantee a mediocre dog.  That is all about training.  What having good blood lines does do, is that it ups the percentage of having a dog that responds to good training as much as possible and has your desired physical traits.

I have met some rescue dogs that were trained incredibly well, and have met some pedigreed dogs that I wouldn't allow in my boat. 

You don't have to break the bank to find a great hunting dog and family companion.  If I had a set amount of money to spend on the purchase and training of a hunting dog, I would put more of the money to the training.  I have had three dogs as an adult, one was a lab/healer mutt (I wish I could have afforded professional training at the time because she would have given any pedigreed dog a run for their money), the second a golden that a friend found when it was a puppy (another great hunting dog that I wish I could have had some training done), and a pedigreed golden whose dad was a field champion and mom was an agility champion with field champs in her bloodline as well.  The last dog was purchased sight unseen for $$$.  She has also had some professional training (the trainer said she had potential to be a field champion if I wanted to go that route, but wished he could have gotten her when she was younger.  I have fallen down on keeping up with what the trainer started but she loves to hunt.  The only problem with her is that she has a very thin coat and gets very cold in real-life hunting situations.

In the end my humble advice would be to see the pups in person and spend the bulk of your budget on training, find out what age the trainer wants the dog (if going that route), and finally, as D. Wolters would emphasize, get the pup at 7 weeks old.  And have fun!

[NWBREW]

WA Cent is correct in that having good blood lines doesn't guarantee an exceptional hunting dog, nor does not having a high brow pedigree guarantee a mediocre dog.  That is all about training.  What having good blood lines does do, is that it ups the percentage of having a dog that responds to good training as much as possible and has your desired physical traits.

I have met some rescue dogs that were trained incredibly well, and have met some pedigreed dogs that I wouldn't allow in my boat.  

You don't have to break the bank to find a great hunting dog and family companion.   and finally, as D. Wolters would emphasize, get the pup at 7 weeks old.  And have fun!

I agree 100%. And like WAcent had said about watching the pups and litter mates. I paid 450 for both of mine....but that was in the 90's. They also were both males. (Is there inflation on the price of pups    ) You can look at more than one litter but good pups from a good line tend to be sold by the 6th week. I put a deposit on my pups at 5 weeks and took him home at 7 weeks.  Good Luck and have fun........and patients.    

[Schmalzfam]

Michelle,

We have 4 labs they all come from heavy field/hunt test lines. Picking a breeder is the most important thing aside from educating yourself about the breed. Just because a breeder come highly recommended see a few. There are a lot of great breeders in the NW.
We have got 2 of our dogs out of state for the different bloodlines.

Hunting lines are important however, for a first time lab owner I would be careful in what you purchase. You say you want a mellow dog, field labs are bred for drive, high energy and desire. There are some field labs that have traits very desirable to the field trial guy but, not the best fit for a first timer.
Hunt test dogs can be just as high energy but just the preference on what the owner want to compete in.

Of course any dog can be trained to be obedient. It just takes reps. and being consistent.
It's not the age of the dog as far as it learning to swim as it is the weather conditions. We got a female in April and she was swimming right away. When they are little they cannot manage their temps.

Get the Wolters book, another one we have is the tritronics total retriever, I like that one better but, that's just me. Wolters sets up time lines that you have to ignore. Every dog is different and so, it's a good book but, you have to ignore the time lines.

Do you plan on keeping it in the house?

As far as the CH dogs go, I will say they "can" have the attitude that they just want to lay around. They don't all have the breeding that includes the high drive. It would be harder for the average person to train, if you got one with out the desire/drive.

Just remember you can't put it in them but, you can take some out.

Feel free if you have any to ask me. If you want breeder suggestions, I will give you some however, I won't air them publicly. There are some too I can tell you to stay away from!!

Good luck in your search. If I see something that I think is fitting, I will PM ya:)

[87Ford]

Find a breeder and a line of dogs that you like.  Then, get on the pick list for a planned breeding.  You may have to wait awhile.  It will be worth it.  Don't just choose from available pups at the time you decide you're ready.

Also,  I like to choose from litters whelped in the fall.  This gives you spring and summer to train and the pup will be around a year old that first hunting season.  Perfect!