If You Were To Give An Elk Seminar?

[BLUEBULLS]

you guys are my type of people.
I am lucky enough to spend most of the fall hunting an area filled with bulls and very few cows. Although I'm never lucky enough to draw a branch bull tag I do get to learn a lot about the elk and the sounds they make. I spend a lot of time sitting in the dark listening to elk and I think I've learned more between 8 and 10 pm than any other time of day. When I'm out hunting and i want to play with a bull I usually call just enough to get him in and once I see him I like to throw some different sounds at him and watch how he reacts. Time in the field and experimenting have been extremely helpful for me.
I look forward to seeing you in Pasco.

[Elknut1]

 High Country, Thank You, that is very kind of you, I appreciate it.

  BLUEBULLS, I couldn't agree with you more! Learning new sounds or just having ones memory jogged about some sounds we may have forgotten is always refreshing especially so when the elk themselves are the teachers!
  I too have had the privilege of being around elk for many years now & can appreciate your comments & enthusiasm as well. I have several thousand hours logged in the study of Elk Vocalization in over 25years of doing so. I've had the privilege of feeding a herd of 45-75 for 5 years & lived with them day & night.  I learned tons back in the 80's when this occurred. It has since those days carried over to Elk Hunting now! (grin) I wouldn't have it any other way!!!! 

  It's Sites like this where we can really learn a lot from fellow hunters, this learning process is a school where no one graduates. No one man will ever know it all, if he thinks he does he's only fooling himself & his ego. I truly enjoy others sharing their tips & experiences as much as I enjoy sharing what I've learned over the years. Thanks for a great post! Please look me up at the Sports Show, I'll be in booth #133 or hook up after the Seminar?

  ElkNut1

[boneaddict]

To empahasize elknut's point.......

I think its great the Seahawks won yesterday.  Do they have a chance against Greenbay?
This gal just came to my window and she was hot.
I wonder when coffee break is.

What does this have to do with this thread?  When you blow on a call, you hare having a "converstaion".  When you are trying to have "love talk", do you break in and start talking about football.  When you're busy visiting with a bunch of friends at the movie theatre and relaxed, do you yell FIRE!  I hate to make animals out to be people, because they are not.  Its just to illustrate the point.  Learn how to talk to the animals for each given situation, and you will have more fun and success than you'll ever know.

[Map]

I don't think bringing the elk into range is so much of a problem as to having patience and not rushing the shot.

Secondly is something I am guilty of as well. Don't set you goals too high, keep them realistic.

Guys who are starting out should consider taking cows and smaller bulls where legal to gather more confidence in the real situation if they haven't killed much with a bow prior.

[Elknut1]

  I totally agree, that if one has few to no archery kills on elk his sights & goals should be set so they are "attainable" ones, this cuts  down on your frustration level considerably! Any elk with a bow is a trophy, when ones lose sight of that it can take away a lot of the enjoyment of pursuing elk with a bow!

  As far as it's not too tough to get elk into bowrange, Hmmm! Not sure where you hunt there but most any states statistics will dis-agree with that statement! I do agree being in control & calm when it's crunch time is important & a big key to success, even though it can be difficult for newer elk hunters, heck, the excitement level can be heart stopping! (grin)  Of course I'm referring to OTC elk hunts on public land during general seasons. Not draw hunts or private land or LE units, those areas can not be compared to calling/hunting elk like during general season OTC hunts. Big difference in hunting pressured elk to non-pressured savvy elk.

  I'm sure most who have difficulty in putting elk on the ground or within bowrange are hunting areas everyone else is? That's where the difficulty lies & a lot of "tag soup" is being consumed! (grin)

  ElkNut1

[Fullabull]

Hi Elknut

Glad to see you here on this forum. We talked a couple years ago just before I ordered your videos. I have learned a lot from them but one thing I believe I always have a problem with is knowing when to be more aggressive with the elk, and I do not mean in calling them but actually going after them or him. I have had to many situations when I later realized that if I had been more aggressive I may have had a much better change at taking an elk. I think I also tend not be patient enough and give elk enough time to come in even when I know the general direction he or they might be. I often figure they must have moved off and then I move off in another direction so I don't push them.
 What are the signs that tell you when to be patient and when to be aggressive?

Thanks in advance for your help and addvice.

Fred (Fullabull)

[Elknut1]

  Fred, good to see you're still around! I remember talking with you as well. ---When to be patient & when to be aggressive can fill volumes! (grin) There are so many encounters that can vary enough where one must adapt quickly to unraveling circumstances, many times things don't go as hoped for or planned! We do our best to size an animal up the minute we hear his first bugle or bull sound, once it's decided were dealing with a herd bull or sattelite we form a strategy, the sattelite will require less aggressiveness than the herd bull. If one can sneak into a vocal herd bull & take him, great! But that's not always the case. One must be prepared to get aggressive if needed.
  I'm not one to say it didn't work out today so I'll leave & try him another day, many times there is no other day! (grin) Instead I get as close as I dare, under 100yds & scream right in his face with some stomping & raking such as in Vol-4 which I know you have. There's other things I may do but this gives you an idea!

  If I'm cow calling a bull & he hangs-up because he wants the cow to come to him then I'll use measures to let him know why she's not coming, not just keep cow calling, he will get nervous & vacate many times, he knows something ain't right, she should've came! Too, a decoy can be worth it's weight in gold at times, I always carry one for those "just in case" times!

  My question to you is be more specific in your question, give us an example or 2 where you feel you could have done something different or a particular encounter went sour & you feel it didn't have too?

  ElkNut1

[Skyvalhunter]

What type of decoy do you prefer? A Montana Decoy?

[Elknut1]

  I personally like the Cow Elk l  the best but the Cow Elk lll is a close 2nd. the Rump Cow Elk ll is very good to use with one of the others when a guy wants to use 2 decoys. I'm referring to the Montana Decoys as I like them best, they're tough as nails & super light weight! You can see them on our Site if you'd like at   www.elknut.com

  A Decoy can be a solo elk hunters best friend in many different encounters!

  ElkNut1

[Fullabull]

Elknut,

Here are a couple examples when I later realized I should have been more aggressive.

1. I'm walking a old logging road on a ridge before the sun comes up and sending out locater bugles every 100 to 150 yards as sound will only travel so far before it can not be heard (this is down and around the Saint Helens area so it's pretty thick). About the third or forth locater bugle gets a reply from about 1/4 to 1/2 mile away, way down in the creek bottom. At first it just sounded like a hey I'm here with some chuckles at the end. So I start working my way down and over to where I think it came from, about half way there I send out another locater to pinpoint him and he lets go with a screaming bugle with grunts at the end this time. So now I'm thinking he's telling me "hey dude this is my part of heaven you need to take a hike". I continue to work down within I believe 200 yrds and do it again,,,,again he screams and grunts at me. (by the way, this was all before I purchased your first two videos) So now I let him know there are a couple cows with this little twerp and he really goes nuts (it was incredible to hear him in that creek bottom) but he will not budge (it wasn't until I got your other videos that I realized he probably had a bunch of cows with him and did not want to leave them). Anyway, he wouldn't come to me and I was afraid to move through some pretty open timber to get down to him so I tried to get aggressive in calling and tried the "Threat" and made a bunch of noise hoping he would break away for a look see but he then just went quiet and I could no longer get him to answer anything. This happened two days in a row so it was both frustrating and incredible at the same time.

I later felt like I should have just worked my way down into the creek bottom farther back and then start working towards him. This would have put me into a better position to sneak up to them. But both times I ended up trying to call him to me and later felt like I should have just tried to sneak into his comfort zone. Advise?

2. This last year I hunted the north east corner of WA. It was sweltering hot every day so we could only hunt the mornings. I had my dad with me and he couldn't get around very well in the heat. One morning I was working my way up to the ridge lines and I heard what sounded like a very lazy short soft bugle, like a bull had heard me coming up the trail and just wanted to let me know he was there just in case I was some company. I tried to get set up so I was out of site and started making a few soft cow calls (this is where I know I made a mistake and didn't make any noise to go along with my cow sounds), he would not answer. I didn't wait very long and started moving up the trail again thinking he was probably moving off (patients would have been good here). I got a about 100 yards up the trail and I he gave the old nervous bark. I didn't answer back and just tried to spot him, I could not find where he was nor could I hear him. I ended up moving off towards the area I was first heading to and never saw a thing......Should I have had more patients when I started cow calling? How long should I wait before making another move in a situation like this. After my first mistake and I heard him do the nervous bark, should I have tried to move in his direction and try and spot him? Maybe this would have aloud me to get his direction of movement so I could try and cut him off. I'm pretty sure he was alone as there was no action going on at all in the area do to the heat....Advise?

By the way, I set my dad up in a spot I knew elk moved through some times and he had a spike come to his calls...the spike came out into the open and just stood around for a bit then he decided to start jogging towards my dad (this was my dads first time bow hunting and he didn't have his bow in hand when the spike showed up so he was trying to inch forward to grab it when the spike decided to jog down towards him). When the spike reached ten yards and passed behind a stump, my dad grabbed his bow. At that same moment the spike smelled my dad and turned on a dime to go back up the trail. By the time me dad realized he should cow call to stop him the spike was about 45 yards away. My dad reached for the string "With His Fingers" (he has a realease) and started pulling it back. By the time the string reached his cheek he realized he had a release.....he said he really felt like an idiot at that point and had to watch the spike walk away. But it was a great experience for him none the less and will bring him back next year.

Sorry for the long winded reply but thanks for always making yourself available to help other in this great persuite of hunting elk.

Fred

[Elknut1]

  Fred, Sure sounds like you had a great time with the bulls there! (grin) I'll help out all I can, although I'll be some what speculating on "what might have happened" Not being there & hearing for myself some of his sounds can be tough in an evaluation sitting here behind my PC. (grin)  1st off, I personally do not like making contact with a bull then getting closer to him & calling some more. Bulls can tell you're making your way towards him & his harem, this can give even the most vocal bulls time to gather his cows & ready them for a possible escape. Instead, once contact is made like your situation with bugling, I'd stay right there & do my best to get his location fairly pinned down & decide if it's a sattelite or herd bull I'm dealing with. If a herd bull, such as your case, I then will stay right there for 2 minutes or so & call 2 more times in that span to let him know I'm still in the same spot & I haven't approached him but instead am heeding his warnings. ( if 2 hunters, then one can stay there & keep vocal while a shooter slips in on him) I would also be listening intently to his bugles, are they staying threatening or is he now changing to a "round up" bugle readying his cows for this escape. As a lone hunter, I then get over towards him as quick & quietly as possible & do not want to be seen or smelled. Once close enough I'll evaluate the situation & see what's my best odds of taking him. If outside of 80yds, I would stay away from general cow calling because most bulls will not come to you but instead try & call you to them which means they hang-up.

  If any cow calling is done at all at that distance it must be aggressively done, this can get his attention! He still may hang-up which means now you have to show him why? This is where the Threat can now come in!!!! Or I may choose not to do any calling & do my best to continue forward but very patiently & get as close to him or his cows as possible.  If you can get close to his cows without being seen you've got a good chance of taking him when he makes his rounds tending to them, bulls will eventually check on all cows. So be very patient, if wind isn't holding well & you have to do something, scream in his face, he'll be there shortly, you'd better have an arrow nocked & be ready! (grin) We've taken bulls both ways in this exact scenario.

  In your 1st & 2nd encounter where all was going well vocally then nothing. It's very possible the lead cow came to investigate this new bull,(you)  in most cases you never see her but she sees you, she then returns to them & ushers the whole herd out of there. You're left standing thinking what the heck happened, this happens a lot to many hunters & they aren't none the wiser about it! Most blame it on their bugling! Encounters can vary, which method of use would work best is tough to say not being right there & watching things unravel.

  On your 2nd scenario, the "nervous grunt" is a tough one to over come when it's the bull that hits you with it first & not you first! We've taken bulls with your exact experience. When a bull sounds off with this sound, you're very close at first contact, you're still OK, he hasn't figured you out yet but wants to make sure what you are & not a possible threat! When there's 2 hunters like in your case, leave a shooter right there & he needs to be ready, then have the 2nd guy start walking away softly snapping twigs as he's leaving & rustling a bit of brush, too he needs to give some very soft chirps as he's leaving, 3 will do in a 60 yd span, in many cases this bull will show up where he heard the 1st chirp & smell where this cow once stood, this can offer the shooter his chance! At times the shooter may need to advance from his location to better position himself if the bull just stays there trying to call this cow that's leaving. Again one would have to be there to see what's the best thing to do at the time.
  Here's a bull my son took where the bull hit us at 40yds with a nervous grunt in thick cover, I did exactly what I just suggested to you, it can work! (grin)

  ElkNut1

[Fullabull]

Thanks Paul,

I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm calling to much at times which may not sound natural for the situation. What you said above makes a lot of sense. I'm starting to figure out their sounds a lot more I just need to figure out more on how and when to react to those sounds. I learn a little more each year I hunt elk with a bow. There is nothing like archery hunting for elk, I have taken bulls with a rifle in the past but it's nothing like hunting them with a bow. Still waiting for my first harvest but I know it's getting closer.

Thanks for all you help and I hope to meet you some time.

Fred

[Little Fish]

Hi Paul - we've talked on the phone several times and I've bought a number of your products. Although I haven't taken an elk with a bow yet (first year hunting archery) your DVDs, products and advice have been excellent...Thanks!

Like other folks I've been in a number of situations where I've had animals respond to my calls, come to my calls, blow out of town when they hear my calls etc. I am getting smarter and learning lots every time I go into the woods, but as a beggining hunter I personally think it would benefit me if you took several real life examples of experiences people have had in the woods and decipher them for your seminar audience with an explanation of what you might change up if you were in the same situation (Fred's story and your response is a perfect example). I've picked up a lot from reading books/surfing forums/watching videos/talking to people etc, but there is serious gap in my knowledge of what to do between getting my first response from a bull and closing the deal. Other than gaining first hand experience over a number of seasons or tagging along with an experienced hunter the best way I can think of to bridge that gap is to have more experienced guys explain what's going on and how to handle a number of real life situations.

At any rate, I hope that makes sense. I appreciate the help you've given to me and the input you are providing to the forum.
James

[Elknut1]

  Little fish, What you say you need & would enjoy hearing is exactly what our Seminars about. I totally agree with your thoughts as well as many others do too! We cover many sounds & whats happening & turn it around into methods & techniques of use, real life experience stuff, not maybe or unproven thoughts! Hope to see you at one some day!!

  ElkNut1