I'm done!

[Opportunist]

I started to post on the who applied for Arizona post and I realized I had too much to say and didn't want to hijack the post. So here it goes.

I'm done paying the bills for all of these out of state game agency's that screw the non-residents every turn of the corner. Every year they increase tag fees and non-refundable useless hunting licenses. Utah just created a new way to screw us with a non-refundable hunting license. They've gone 15 years
without needing one "but hey look at all the non-residents with 10 plus points, lets suck some more money out of them,they won't back out" well guess what, Utah you can kiss my nonres. ASS!

When I first started applying in Arizona the hunting license was $85, then $118 now $151 non-refundable and you used to be able to apply without buying the license you just didn't build a point. I've applied for ten years but I only bought the license 7 times. I've tried to cash in my points with less desirable archery and late easier to draw rifle hunts no draw. I heard rumor of a tag fee increase to $1000 dollars which isn't that farfetched when you consider New Mexico is $756 and Utah $700, $1500 for the premium tag. At least New Mexico is cheap to apply in. Arizona you can kiss my non-res ASS!

To build points in Wyoming for deer, elk and antelope is $120 non-refundable and the regular elk tag is $641 and the special is $1071! At least you can opt out for the points. But $641 is too much for an elk tag! About 2-300 dollars too much! Wyoming you can kiss my non-res. ASS!

Colorado is reasonable and I will continue building there, along with Oregon since I hunt there almost every year archery or rifle. Idaho will always be my fall back archery elk hunt. And of course Washington.

I am not a rich man and this out of state application game has turned it into a rich man's game. I've heard it said hunting is TURNING into a rich man's sport guess again it IS!

Other factors for my decision to pull out of these states is non-res pay ten time the cost and only get 10% of the tags, something not right there. The Teddy Roosevelt legislation  to standardize tag costs on federal lands the last I heard was shot down.

I'm going to say it and I'm sure I'll catch hell, but this state screws the non-residents almost the worst. When the western coalition of state game agencys agreed to limit non-resident tags to ten time the cost of resident tags WDFW jumped it up to ten times. That's why non-res application fees are $50 instead of $5.
It would be hypocritical to bitch about these other states if I didn't bring up Washington. Flame away.

I set goals years ago and one was to kill a 350"type bull with my bow, i killed a 333" bull with broken tines. I am totally satisfied with opportunitys to hunt and kill bulls in the 250" class. For me to kill a 375" bull it had better be the first bull I get a shot at because I can't pass on a 6 point bull. With this thought in mind is where I began thinking about where to best spend my hunting money. Washington,Oregon and Idaho are it, the blue collar states in my opinion.

This is my personal boycott!

With that being said, good luck to those that have applied!

[WAcoyotehunter]

I'm with you.  I will not buy a $100+ dollar hunting license in order to get a point.  In ten years you'll have $1000 dollars invested and will likely pay another $500-$1000 in tags fees...plus getting there and hunting...
You're better off saving up and doing a guided, guaranteed tag, hunt.  OTC hunts with a bow are pretty decent still.

[dbllunger]

I think the rates are increasing due to major pressure being put on by residents to slow/reduce the out of staters.  Also the fact that people including goverment are realizing what some people will pay.   

[Bigshooter]

I'm with you.  I will not buy a $100+ dollar hunting license in order to get a point.  In ten years you'll have $1000 dollars invested and will likely pay another $500-$1000 in tags fees...plus getting there and hunting...
You're better off saving up and doing a guided, guaranteed tag, hunt.  OTC hunts with a bow are pretty decent still.

If you want to hunt Arizona, Oregon, Wyoming, or Montana for example you have to draw a tag.  So you could never do a hunt there.  Unless you buy a governor type tag, or a landowner tag.  If you want to hunt Utah or Nevada for elk you are going to spend $10,000+ for just the landowner tag.  Colorado and new Mexico landowner tags on the top units are between $5000 and $10,000.

It seems to me a guided hunt costs a lot more money than apply in Arizona for ten years. (Also during those ten years you could be buy points for mule deer for less than ten dollars a year.) Even if it did take 10 years to draw you are looking at having spent $4000 dollars total for the entire hunt.  Which is a lot cheaper than most guided hunts with guaranteed tags.

[WDFW-SUX]

 

[COUG]

Well if the motivation is to get as much money out of the OOS licenses but also offer a chance for the little guy, they should online auction a certain percent like the EBAY model.  They would make much more monry on this program and thus be able to decrease costs for the second part which is a lottery system. 

The Governor tag is similar to this but this would be open to the nation via a large auction site such as EBAY. 

There will always be people that will pay anything, the auction will now set that price and move the money to the lottery system to keep fees down.

Thoughts?

Coug

[Ironhead]

Opportunist, If you have 10 pts in AZ you would be plumb crazy to get out now. You are only about 450.00 away from the max pool and an almost guaranteed tag in one of the greatest Elk hunting areas in the world. I would hate to see you give up now when you are so close. If you are done, can you figure out how to give me your points ? With your 10 I would be sitting on 17 and looking good for 9.

[bear]

Opportunist, I'm with you.  I'm sick and tired of how expensive the out of state hunts are.  By the time you might actually have a chance to draw a tag, you'll have a thousand bucks invested and then have to buy the tag on top of that, then spend $4 gal for gas to get there!  The more that I hunt the more that I realize that its all about the experience and that killing an animal is not a requirement for a good time.  Good company + good camp = good time.  So for now at least I'll hunt Washington and maybe Idaho on occasion.

[Opportunist]

Ironhead, I have 7 points not 10, I didn't buy the license 3 times. Max points as of this year is 18 when you include loyaly point and hunter education point. Which is another one of my bitches with arizona. They are the only state that does not recognize other states hunter education courses. You have to take THEIR  hunter education class to get the extra point! I have no chance to reach maximum points in my lifetime by the numbers, I am eleven years behind as of right now. Even with max. points it is not a guarantee, I believe only 20% are set aside for max. points, I could be off on the percentage but it is not 50 % like Utah.

I know it sounds crazy, but it's just not that important to me anymore to be wasting money on points. I would rather spend my money on actual hunts in Or, Id, and WA. I've killed 8 six point bulls in these three states archery and rifle and am completely satisfied with the hunts I do. My hunting partners think I'm crazy too but they understand my point. My one buddy has a $ 1,000 in licenses tied up in Nevada for a deer tag he hasn't drawn yet. He's satisfied so I say to each is own.

I am a little crazy!

If they made it where I could apply without buying the license and fronting the money for all applied species I would reconsider but as of right now they can bite it! They have priced me out! They got what they wanted, RICH MAN'S sport!

[Ironhead]

I hear ya Opportunist we are being priced out.
 One thing to remember in AZ is that the guys with 18 and 19 bp's are all rifle guys putting in for 3,9,10 early.
Archery guys are maxed in the 13 bp range.

[lemondog]

It is not going to get any better or cheaper. I am out of Utah now with it's new fee and I didn't do Arizona 5 years ago when I started my points building plan. Nevada is a reasonable deal as well as Wyoming and Colorado. We better start getting something in place for "quality" here at home in WA or many will never be able to go on a true "Trophy Hunt" due to the costs involved.

[Slider]

I have dropped out of two states the last two years!!! The sad part is the States you think are cheap now will follow suit after they get some of your money!!!

[tmike]

Opportunist you could probably draw a late rifle now. I drew unit 8 a few years ago with 8 points and some of the guys in camp drew with 3 and 4 points. I agree it is a killer to put up the tag fees on top of the license. Utah at $65 or whatever it is, is still cheaper than a lot of western states.

[boneaddict]

You have mirrored every thought I have had opputunist.

[Opportunist]

Tmike, I've applied for late rifle hunts second choice the last three years. I could draw this year or five years from now. Their point system is worse than Washington in that it's not a preference system and it has no multiplier like Wa or Nevada.

Ironhead, Arizona points are not weapon specific so I don't know how that would help archers draw if the max points is 18. The max point guarantee would only affect those with 18 points. At least the way I understand it. The problem with it is the fact it's basicly *censored*house luck up to the point you have max points which I will never attain. I do not have sour grapes about not drawing, I can wait to draw, I'm just tired of the costs.

 I fully understand I will draw eventually it's just that I'm done getting screwed by these game departments.   Utah has always been a no-brainer apply state. What started it this year for me was the increase by wyoming on  their elk tag of $200. Then I find out from Arizona I have to front all my tag fees let alone purchase the $151 hunting license which almost forced me out last year. Then Utah creates a useless non-resident hunting license, granted its only $65 then $20 for elk and sheep. Utah dwr keeps giving away the non-resident tags out of our allottment to the Sportsman for Wildlife for auction and raffle. In order to claim the raffle tag you must be present in Salt lake city. What a joke!

I purchased the Wyoming preference points the last two years for deer/elk  and antelope. Then they increase the tag fees by 30%. I'm done.

[Ironhead]

Your correct they aren't weapon specific ,and you are in no mans land with 7 points as I am. What I was getting at is the guys with 14 or more bonus points are putting in for rifle hunts while 13 points will get you in to the archery hunts. I beleive alot of people are going to do just like you are talking and bail out ,that should help the guys that stay in.
Resident Non-resident   bonus points
19-1 19-1
18-5 18-1
17-24 17-2
16-49 16-22
15-109 15-55
14-142 14-89
13-199 13-127
12-277 12-187
11-408 11-303

[actionshooter]

 Reading the past posts about who puts in for what states, I felt like I might be missing out on something. I stopped putting in for other states years ago when they started the system where you "donate" to get points, I thought it was *censored* then and I still feel the same way. I hunt the over the counter states Colorado, Idaho and i've hunted Alaska. I always think about Oregon but haven't looked into it yet. In Colorado you can still get points on the better tags, if you don't draw then buy a tag thats left over, there are a ton of areas.
 Thanks for the post Opportunist, I don't feel left out anymore. 

[Bookworm]

I agree that the fees are getting outrageous. I put in for Utah last year for the first and only time. I have points for Wyoming that I'm hoping to use this year. We'll see what happens after this.

[Ridgerunner]

It is pretty frustrating to see what is going on in all the states.  I wish I had been on the ball a long time ago and am now feeling quite behind in most states.  Does paying all that money up front stink, yeah it does but what other options does a guy have if he wants to experience some great hunts.  For me, its forced me to prioritize what states and what species I really want to hunt.  When you add what the travel costs are nowdays any out of state hunt is going to be a pretty penny.  Is hunting getting more expensive, yeah it is but so  is everything else.  I guess you have to decide how much money you are willing to part with every year for a possible chance of hunting at some point down the road.

[lemondog]

My pal took a real nice bull on a Arizona late modern tag in november.7 or 8 points I think. A real stud. I can hook you up if you want to talk with him.

[bucklucky]

I think I have 5 or 6 points and will keep putting in till I get draw. Cant wait to kill a unit 9 Bull with my bow! I figure all I'm doing is paying for QUALITY!

[WAcoueshunter]

Archery guys are maxed in the 13 bp range.

Where did you find the breakdown of the number of bp's for residents and NRs?  Some good info there.
Do they break out the bp's for each hunt somewhere?  Would love to see that if they do.

A question about how max points works...I always thought the AZ max points pool was done on a species by species basis, but just recently read that it's done for each hunt number, which I interpret to mean that max points for Unit 9 archery will be different than Unit 6A archery.  If that's true, couldn't you apply your points to a lesser unit and have max points with 6, 7, 8 points?  There are so many really good units down there, just seems you could apply your points to a unit with less demand and either have max points or at least not run into the NR cap.

Either way, let's assume the archery guys with the most bp's will be putting in for Unit 9.  Probably a safe assumption.  Since there's only seven or eight NR Unit 9 archery tags/year, it is going to take a long time to go from 8-10 points to max, even if max for archery is only 13 right now.  There are so many guys holding out for Unit 9 from around the country, max will keep going up each year, and that logjam will take a long time to clear.  I've got 7 points as well...how long til I have max?  A long long time.  I'm not going to hold out for 9.

[Ironhead]

They have a draw  BP breakdown you can buy from the AZFG ,of course it's not cheap either. I am not holding out for any of the elite
3A-3C, 9 or 10 I have 7 BP's also and feel I can draw a lesser unit  and have a great hunt.

[WAcoueshunter]

They have a draw  BP breakdown you can buy from the AZFG ,of course it's not cheap either. I am not holding out for any of the elite
3A-3C, 9 or 10 I have 7 BP's also and feel I can draw a lesser unit  and have a great hunt.

Thanks Ironhead.  I need to look into that breakdown...

The thing I really hate about AZ is that they don't square points.  Unless you have max, a guy with 10 bps only has 2x the odds of a guy with 5.  I really like the WA system for that reason.

I tagged along on a "lesser unit" hunt last year and it was awesome.  Success rates definitely lower than 9 (9 is generally 70%+), but we still chased mature bugling bulls every day.  My cousin ultimately shot an 8x7 350" bull after I left.  I guess it's a priority thing.  I'd rather be out there chasing bulls more often than hold our for my once-in-a-lifetime tag.  Heck, I flew down there without a tag just to see the spectacle. 

[NoBark]

Very understandable.

Call it the evolution of hunting.  In my dads day, a huge number of men hunted. Almost all hunted locally and never even thought of going 'out of state'.  They had long seasons or a high success rate. 

In my hunting experience of 30 years, we've seen the increase in leased land, the commercialization of hunting via products and sponsors, the whole video thing. We have hunting 'stars' (and I use that term with distain) now and fewer hunters with more time and more money to spend.  It's used to expand their opportunities or their ego by going out of state.

It's like sports. When I was kid we played one sport then the next and then the next. Now kids are playing one sport and the rest of the year are playing in leagues and going to camps and specializing in one sport. 

Maybe it's the difference between hunting as a pasttime (my dads day) and hunting as a passion/obsession (today) 

Maybe a good depression would set things straight?

[jimkirk]

man washington is right in the game too. i was thinking of putting in my relatives for a multi season washington tag until i read

Multiple-season deer or elk tags cost $164.25 for residents and $1,642.50 for nonresidents, including transaction fees. These figures do not include the cost of an annual hunting license.

all for hunting on national forest land, whew thats steep!

[boneaddict]

hunting stars.......I miss the hunting legends of yesterday.   

I'm almost wondering if I should really get my girls interested in hunting.   I'm afraid it will be a big disappointment.

[WAcoueshunter]

I don't know that it's just the evolution of hunting...seems it's the evolution of society.  For better or worse, society has a lot more disposable money these days, and people apply their funds to what they enjoy.  For those most passionate about it, they choose to spend the extra $$$ on hunting.  For others that might be $80 ski lift tickets and $300 hotel rooms at destination ski resorts.  For others it might be an F-350 with all the bells and whistles.  For others it might be a new 4,000 square foot house with granite countertops.  With limited animals but a growing population, the demand for (and willingness to pay for) premium hunts goes up, and so does the price.  Seems like simple economics to me. 

[actionshooter]

I don't know that it's just the evolution of hunting...seems it's the evolution of society.  For better or worse, society has a lot more disposable money these days, and people apply their funds to what they enjoy.  For those most passionate about it, they choose to spend the extra $$$ on hunting.  For others that might be $80 ski lift tickets and $300 hotel rooms at destination ski resorts.  For others it might be an F-350 with all the bells and whistles.  For others it might be a new 4,000 square foot house with granite countertops.  With limited animals but a growing population, the demand for (and willingness to pay for) premium hunts goes up, and so does the price.  Seems like simple economics to me. 

I agree, no matter what your into Its getting more specialized and expensive. This means more people are willing to spend the big bucks and unfourtunatley its (hunting) also turned into a competition.

[NoBark]

i"d like to see a little research on this aspect.  I know most states talk about decreasing numbers of hunters. Even washington has its stats on this. So it begs the question,  how come it seems more crowded than ever?

Guys, I teach Hunter Ed, I can tell you that at least in my area, if half of the kids that I teach hunt, It wont get better.  Maybe we are an aberation on a national trend but a lot of kids go through the course and most are with dad in tow.

I'd like to see if there is a correlation between the loss of habitat/area to hunt and hunter numbers.

Is the available space shrinking FASTER than the decline in hunters?

OR

Is the lack of a place to hunt, a cause of hunter shrinkage?

[WDFW-SUX]

I thought about this subject a lot before I decided to post and here is what I think about the commercialization of hunting and the increases in cost for tags and services.

Undoubtedly there are people that will not be able to afford some of the nonresident fees and will only be able to hunt in there home state and that is truly unfortunate.  However if people like myself and many other on this board did not waste the amount of money we do every year on hunting and hunting related products there would not be ANY quality big game hunting in north America. 

The Passion that people have for hunting and the great outdoors is the only thing that makes state wildlife lands possible, and funding of a majority of state Fish and Game departments budgets.

Tag fees and donations are the  reason that there is any acquisition of winter range and without that there would be no big game for anyone. If people were not obsessed with there RAM  SLAM  and willing to spend 200,000+ to do it there would be 2 or 3 huntable populations of Big Horns in North America.

 I know it sucks when the guy with 250K worth of gear pulls up to the spot that your family has been hunting for years and proceeds to ruin it but the reality is if he didnt care and spent his money on a sports car vs an Elk hunt we would all suffer.

[Coasthunterjay]

thats a good way of putting it passion........

[jackelope]

good stuff passion, thats the reason i can never understand why people piss and moan about the gov. tag hunts in the western states. thats great money to support the resources we sportsmen love.

[NoBark]

I think passion has some valid points but I think it's overstated.  While the money helps, it not the only money they are getting.  Important yes, but not as to say we wouldn't have "ANY" quality big game hunts. 

Jackalope, I use to feel the way you do until UTAH went over the edge. I sure as heck hope that what they did there is an indication of the future.

[Elknut1]

  Well, I just applied for WY, now will hit NM then apply for a Deer & Elk tag for a special draw for a great Oct rifle elk hunt. No big bulls there like some of you have taken, but a 320 class is possible, it's some very thick country too boot.

  Anyone who wants to seriously put in for ID let me know via PM & I'll hook you up with a very good unit for Bow or Rifle! It's all in the draw though, but it's tough to draw if you don't apply!

  I will agree though that I really hate seeing things get out of hand prices wise but what can you do? I'm an Elk Hunter at heart!! It would take an act of God to stop me from elk hunting each year. I must have a fix!! (grin) I must make sure my son fills his freezer, he's my number one inspiration in life!

  ElkNut1

[TheHunt]

I put in for Arizona, Utah, Wyoming, New Mexico, Montana and Nevada every year.  This year it will cost more which means I have to sell more firewood.  The cost of the trip to any of the Southern states is only about 1200 to 1400 dollars.  Sleep in a tent, only pay for food and gas. 

If your a penny pincher like me you can still pull it off.

[boneaddict]

Amen to all the above on this page.