wolf #'s down in Yellowstone

[quacker whacker]

thought this was intresting... http://www.missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/article_85f2162c-1b3a-11df-8e6a-001cc4c002e0.html 

[bobcat]

They must be running low on deer and elk to eat so they've moved on to more productive areas outside of the park.

[ICEMAN]

Sadly, that sounds exactly what is probably happening...

[WAcoyotehunter]

I remember hearing about one pack that strayed too close to the territory of another and was nearly wiped out.  They can have some pretty vicious dog fights.  It probably makes sense that they would defend territory more aggressively (notice decline in population NOT pack numbers) according to food availabilty. 
They will also do some self regulation if food becomes scarce.  Like coyotes, their litter sizes will decline if food sources are a limiter.  The decline in size probably reflects a natural balance now that prey availablity has reached normal levels and the high wolf population became unstainable. 

[whacker1]

I would also throw in there that if the game is getting scarce some wolves have probably followed said game out of the park as well.  I would think that geographic spread would play a part in this.

[WAcoyotehunter]

That might be the case- although most of that country is already occupied by existing packs, which leads to mortality from fighting as well as the extra mortality from hunting.  Several yellowstone wolves (the ones with names from the city folk... ) were killed by hunters early in the season. 

[bearpaw]

That might be the case- although most of that country is already occupied by existing packs, which leads to mortality from fighting as well as the extra mortality from hunting.  Several yellowstone wolves (the ones with names from the city folk... ) were killed by hunters early in the season. 

Or will wolves just move farther, which explains why the wolves are showing up in WA, OR, and CO.

If no hunting is allowed in YNP and if wolves have fully tapped it's ungulate reproducing capabitlity that pretty much gives us a crystal ball view for the future of hunting in the western states unless wolf management is taken more seriously.

[Pathfinder101]

I spoke for a while with a retired wolf bio from Alaska abou this time last year.  What he said is that wolf introduction follows a predictable cycle:
1.  Wolves are introduced
2.  They eat all the available food
3.  Their packs grow
4.  young males are forced out and some form new packs
5.  the food runs out
6.  wolves resort to wolf-on-wolf violence
7.  wolf numbers stabilize
8.  Game animals repopulate and their numbers stabilize
9.  With some fluctuation, both populations remain fairly stable

I asked him how long this takes, and he said it depends on the population and the size of the prey animals.  15 to 20 years usually.

Anyone remember when wolves were intruduced in Yellowstone?
I noticed when I was there this summer that you don't see NEARLY as many elk as you used to, and almost NO moose at all.  The Yellowstone ecosystem may be nearing the "wolf stabilization" phase.   

[Shootmoore]

That might be the case- although most of that country is already occupied by existing packs, which leads to mortality from fighting as well as the extra mortality from hunting.  Several yellowstone wolves (the ones with names from the city folk... ) were killed by hunters early in the season. 

Or will wolves just move farther, which explains why the wolves are showing up in WA, OR, and CO.

If no hunting is allowed in YNP and if wolves have fully tapped it's ungulate reproducing capability that pretty much gives us a crystal ball view for the future of hunting in the western states unless wolf management is taken more seriously.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head right here.  YNP has hit the cap, the wolf population is now spreading.  Why are they spreading to Washington and now Colorado?  Because they are capping out near YNP and are spreading out.  I would venture to guess even if the YNP was legal to hunt in, human hunters would not be able to hunt as the natural elk vs wolf populations have reached a balance. 

This is my concern, IF the natural balance of Predator and Prey is reached (which is what the pro wolf crowd want) humans are NOT in the picture.  Unless states are able to effectively and aggressively suppress the wolf numbers the balance will be obtained and humans will be pushed out of the picture.

Shootmoore

[WAcoyotehunter]

[Or will wolves just move farther, which explains why the wolves are showing up in WA, OR, and CO.

YES!  Which is why we're seeing wolves from Glacier National Park in Northeast Washington.  Additonally, the dispersers will have to travel further through "hostile" territory and either join a pack or try to start one, which can be difficult.  

I like that series pathfinder.  Though the food running out is a bit of an exageration.  The available food could fall to a level that makes hunting difficult and expends more calories than they can maintain...then they probably won't die, but will likely turn to livestock (or at least I would...).  

Good discussion here.

I still advocate reporting wolf sightings with good information and MORE IMPORTANTLY pushing for land use practices that will increase game populations to help support the incoming wolves but more importantly, will maintain robust populations for hunters.  Weeds are a HUGE problem in WA...we could have literally twice as many elk here if the weeds were not degrading huge tracts of land.

[WAcoyotehunter]

This is my concern, IF the natural balance of Predator and Prey is reached (which is what the pro wolf crowd want) humans are NOT in the picture.  Unless states are able to effectively and aggressively suppress the wolf numbers the balance will be obtained and humans will be pushed out of the picture.

Shootmoore

I tend to agree.  We cannot maintain "historic" wolf populations.  We can have wolves, but not too many. Management will have to be extensive and ongoing.

[Pathfinder101]

[Or will wolves just move farther, which explains why the wolves are showing up in WA, OR, and CO.

YES!  Which is why we're seeing wolves from Glacier National Park in Northeast Washington.  Additonally, the dispersers will have to travel further through "hostile" territory and either join a pack or try to start one, which can be difficult.  

I like that series pathfinder.  Though the food running out is a bit of an exageration.  The available food could fall to a level that makes hunting difficult and expends more calories than they can maintain...then they probably won't die, but will likely turn to livestock (or at least I would...).  

Good discussion here.

I still advocate reporting wolf sightings with good information and MORE IMPORTANTLY pushing for land use practices that will increase game populations to help support the incoming wolves but more importantly, will maintain robust populations for hunters.  Weeds are a HUGE problem in WA...we could have literally twice as many elk here if the weeds were not degrading huge tracts of land.

Did not mean that the food would run completely out, Just, as you said, the amount of game that it takes to feed the amount of wolves is not there anymore.  I think this is about where some parts of Idaho are right now...

[Shootmoore]

This is my concern, IF the natural balance of Predator and Prey is reached (which is what the pro wolf crowd want) humans are NOT in the picture.  Unless states are able to effectively and aggressively suppress the wolf numbers the balance will be obtained and humans will be pushed out of the picture.

Shootmoore

I tend to agree.  We cannot maintain "historic" wolf populations.  We can have wolves, but not too many. Management will have to be extensive and ongoing.

And for this reason right here is why I push so hard against the wolf.  While if truth be told I can live with a "few wolves" as long as they do not effect humans.  The pro-wolf is pushing for wolves above all else.  It is simple really if you have one side pushing for wolf above all else you must have an equal force pushing the other way and hope that the final result is somewhere in the middle.  I have watched the scenario play out in other states, and the opening volleys in this state.  I was initially for trying a level and moderate approach to the argument, but what I have seen is a heavy push from the pro-wolf side.  It seems that if you give them an inch they want to take a mile. 

Like the 3 "options" and I use the term loosly as there is really little difference among the 3.  Instead of starting somewhere reasonable in the middle ground such as 6 breeding pairs in the option not provided to the commission you could then study this and see if the numbers needed to be reduced and or increased to balance the populations of wolf vs prey vs hunters.  Instead its 15 pair, then wait 3 years before they then discuss and come up with a way to manage the wolf and how they will reduce the population at this time. 

When asked if hunting will be used for management after the 3 year waiting period, the answer given by the head of the wdfw wolf program was "maybe".  My unscientific guess is if this plan goes into affect, this is how it will play out.  The WDFW will drag its feet on "officially" recognizing breeding pairs, when and if they come to the 15 breeding pair count there will actually be 20-25 breeding pairs in Washington State (IF the prey base and available habitat can support that number).  That with those numbers of wolves in the state and then a 3 year waiting period after that, wolf population vs prey population will be closing in on the "balance".  To maintain the balance, there WILL be a push by the environmental groups to end big game hunting in Washington to protect the food to sustain the wolf population.  We will spend a lot of money to trap and relocate problem wolves (ie make someones problem someone Else's). 

If the State WDFW pulls its head out and attempts to lethally control wolves in the state, the Environmental groups WILL then use the federal courts to attempt to stop any actual meaningfull population control of the wolves.  One must only look at the other states and learn from those mistakes.  What kills me is that many of these environmental groups receive federal and state grants, then use those monies to sue the state and federal government.  It really is amazing.

Shootmoore

[whacker1]

well said Shootmore.

[woodswalker]

Well Put Shootmore.