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Author Topic: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!  (Read 11379 times)

Offline fishcrazy

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Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« on: February 20, 2010, 01:54:18 PM »
Most gas today has alcohol in it and will cause problems in fuel injected motors. Not just cars but in boats and everything.

I finally got it figured out. I talked to several people the last 2 days and wish I knew this sooner.
The alcohol will draw moisture and mix with the water in fuel. It will NOT allow the water to separate out in the water/fuel separator on the motor. Total I have 3 and still had problems. It gets into the injection parts and causes all kinds of problems!!! Lucky I ran into a guy that had the same problem as me on the same motor. He clued me in and now I finally got it all running right again.

I had to put a fuel conditioner in. They make several kinds. Staybill is a good one but you are also buying a name. The guy told me he like CRC and it is about 1/2 the cost. I picked up a big bottle of CRC. Enough to do 150 gallons. I dumped about 1/4 the bottle in to my 2/3 full 42 gallon tank. I tried to run it about 1 hr later and it still ran bad. After sitting for 2 days  I just took it to the river and tried it. She fired right up and ran perfect!!!  I think the enzyme in the conditioner needed time to break down the alcohol so the water can be pulled out in the separators.

Just thought I would share this info and maybe help save somebody the experience I had.



Kris
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Offline robodad

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 02:16:07 PM »
Whew !! Here I thought it was just my luck screwing with your boat since you were nice enough to take me fishin, I tend to have that effect just ask Mike !!!  :P

Glad it's not me this time !!!  :chuckle:
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Offline jackelope

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 04:20:55 PM »
ethanol.
it doesn't affect car engines, at least not to the point you have to add a conditioner to the fuel or a water seperator. I might be a little cautious about your fix...was that gas in your motor sitting around for  a long time?
 :dunno:
a lot of new cars these days built in the last few years wil run on 85% ethanol. it's so corrosive because of the high O2 content that you need to have the right hardware on your fuel lines and stuff, but I don't know of any other problems it causes. It actually burns better than gasoline...makes more horsepower and burns faster.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 04:31:29 PM »
I'm with Jack on this one, sounds like an old fuel issue.
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline robodad

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 05:14:26 PM »
 :DOH: Now your startin to make me think it is me and my damn luck  :bash:
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Offline PolarBear

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »
You should ALWAYS put fuel stabilizer in your boat, tractor, quads, etc if you are storing them for more that a couple of months.  I learned the hard way years ago.  Another thing that a lot of folks don't know about ethanol is that it will dissolve the resin in fiberglass fuel tanks leading to destruction of your engine!  Ethanol will turn resin into a gel which gets sucked into your carb and will clog it up or even harden ruining the system.  There are several boat manufacturers that are suing the state of Kahliforniah, for the high levels of ethanol in the fuel.  Bottom line, check your fuel tanks and make sure the are molded plastic or aluminum or you are running the risk of ruining your motor.

Offline fishcrazy

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 07:09:53 PM »
The gas was no more than 2 months old. 


Kris

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Offline fishcrazy

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 07:41:29 AM »
By the time the fuel gets to tehsystem on my big motor it has 3 water seperators. The fuel pump has a filter/water seperator and a fuel bowl type with a drain. I also have a large one that I have added that also handles the kicker. Every time I have changed these or drained teh fuel bowl I have never found water. Now I know why. The alcohol in the gas won't let the water seperate.

The fuel conditioner might change that now. In a few weeks I will drain my fuel bowl and see.

Something I was thinking about also. I am thinking a fuel conditioner is different than a fuel stabilizer. I'm going to do some reading on some links that were posted on another forum. If they are of any help I will post them up under this topic.

Kris
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Offline jackelope

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 08:52:18 AM »
not arguing here, just wondering....if ethanol has such a negative effect on your boat motor, then what is it about ethanol that effects your boat motor and not your car engine? every major auto maker in the world approves E-10 ethanol fuel which is 10% ethanol(or alcohol in your terms) and I've never seen a water seperator in any gasoline burning car or truck engines.
Again please don't take this as a challenge or a dispute...just conversation is all.
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Offline jackelope

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 08:54:19 AM »
I'm with Jack on this one, sounds like an old fuel issue.
hey Rob I found this...
Quote
Many Boat Owners, in recent years, have unknowingly used gas, blended with too high (unsafe) levels of ethanol alcohol. Running on gas with over 10 % alcohol in a marine engine will cause performance problems, and can also cause permanent damage to your marine motor.


Understanding the dangers and effects of alcohol gas, in addition to following all the necessary marine fuel system precautions, is now necessary to avoid any problems with E10 gasoline.


There has been much controversy, misinformation and confusion since the recent (2006) increased distribution of ethanol gasoline in the United States.


Recent marketing gimmicks by some fuel additive product companies, have confused boaters even more.  These ads falsely claim their new products can "fix" or repair ethanol water-contaminated fuel...Phase-separated fuel can not be fixed, and it must be discarded.
 
Even high level, reputable government authorities, have recently published information that conflicts with previous articles and bulletins written years ago on ethanol.


Marine manufacturer fuel recommendations (eg. owners manuals), which in the past, often warned against using alcohol fuels, now document that up to 10 % ethanol in gas is acceptable.


As more people are using E10, the necessary precautions and dangers are becoming more apparent and better documented.


Boaters looking for instant answers and solutions will not find them- But, increased knowledge and following all the necessary precautions can spare you from most of the inconvenience and problems with alcohol gas.




All reputable authorities agree, that running on ethanol alcohol above 10 % will cause motor damage and/or performance issues with gas-powered engines, and it is always unsafe to run on contaminated fuel.
Prevention is your best weapon against ethanol gas.




Ethanol Fuel Background:


E10, Is a gasoline blended with up to 10 % ethanol alcohol and is now in widespread use in the U.S. Ethanol, ethyl alcohol, is made from corn, sugar and other grains.


Alcohol is an excellent cleaner, solvent, anti-freeze and most important, ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb large amounts of water.


Government regulations and laws for ethanol fuel use and labeling differ from state-to-state, and are constantly changing.     View Ethanol Handbook 2006 State-By-State Laws.


The most serious boat engine problems, resulting from ethanol E10 use, have mainly occurred due to illegal amounts of ethanol (over 10 %) being incorrectly added at the gas station pumps, by the delivery truck drivers..


Since using over 10 % alcohol gas is dangerous, it will invalidate all marine company engine warranties.


Many ethanol problems, reported by boaters appears to be due to their lack of knowledge/information on how to properly manage alcohol fuels.


Many boat engine breakdowns in recent months are directly related to the mismanagement of E10 gas.
Your marine mechanic may not even suspect or test the fuel as a possible cause of breakdowns. Many marine engine repair businesses have flourished as a result of ethanol gas engine damage.


Several older engines can not use any fuels that contains alcohol.  Eg. Certain fiberglass tanks, mostly manufactured prior to 1992, will decompose from alcohol.


Fortunately newer outboard engines (past 5 years) have been designed to be more compatible with alcohol fuels.




Reasons Boat Engines Have More Problems with Ethanol Gas:


Boaters, often store gas in tanks longer than recommended for E10 (90 days).
Cars, unlike boats, usually replace fuel every week or two, which will successfully prevent the possibility of water-contamination/phase separation.


Boat engines live in a water environment - Alcohol gas loves to absorb water.
Ethanol E10 gas can absorb large amounts of water into the fuel tank, MTBE in conventional gasoline did not. 


Plus, boat engines usually last longer than cars. Still owning and using a marine engine from the 1970's or 1980's is not uncommon. * These older engine parts and tanks were not usually designed or tested to withstand the damaging effects of alcohol gas.
* Several older marine engines (made prior to 1992) have plastic and rubber parts, and fiberglass tanks that are NOT compatible with E10 alcohol fuel.


:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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Offline jackelope

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 08:55:06 AM »
more......google is my friend..
Quote
Ethanol's adverse effects to boat motors involves all types of performance issues and disintegration and deterioration, drying and clogging of engine parts.


Signs and symptoms of ethanol problems and damage include:


Stalling, prematurely worn engine parts, rusting, clogging of fuel filters and carburetor jets, release of gunk and sludge throughout the engine, frequent water-contamination/phase separation of fuel, and eventually engine breakdowns and death.


Ethanol can cause a motor to run lean on fuel, due to water will not burn, which will take the place of fuel.
Vapor lock (fuel starvation) is common when using ethanol fuels.


Alcohol fuels are very prone to phase separation, when the weight of the ethanol and water will sink to the bottom of the fuel tank and get picked up by the motors fuel system. (Even small amounts of water can harm the fuel system). 


The initial symptoms, (of using a higher than acceptable concentration of alcohol in fuel, is usually engine stalling when you demand acceleration (WOT).


You'll notice other performance issues, such as increased stalling, misfire, hesitation and difficulty maintaining boat speed during trolling.


The long term dangers of ethanol (and other alcohol-blended fuels) are many, including deterioration of parts (rubber, aluminum, fiberglass etc.), rusting, fuel system clogging, and other varied damage to engine parts and components.  Older engines are more prone to ethanol alcohol damage.


The most reported and troublesome issue with marine engines and ethanol fuel has been regarding the decomposition of certain fiberglass gas tanks.  There really is no solution to this issue, other than to replace the tank (very costly, time-consuming project);  Lining or sealing the tank, for added protection, is sometimes possible.




1. It is dangerous to use greater than 10 % ethanol in marine engines.


Some gas supplies are illegally much higher. Check gas with an alcohol fuel test kit to make sure ethanol present is less than 10%.


A recent post on a Long Island, NY message board states,
"Believe it or not, some of the fuel samples tested 48 % ethanol and most were above the 10 % 'maximum allowable by law'.".


All marine engines sold in the United States are designed to operate on fuel containing no more than 10 percent ethanol.  Engines built before ethanol became popular for environmental reasons, (past 10 years) have minimal safeguards from the damage alcohol fuels will cause.




2.  Ethanol absorbs water - Water molecules combine with petroleum (gas)  in your gas fuel tank and lines...
Ethanol has an increased risk of fuel water-contamination due to ability to absorb  H20.
(Ethanol attracts and absorbs moisture from the air).  Vapor lock and fuel starvation can occur.


The gasoline you pump in your tank may be dry, but due to condensation (from humidity, temperature, etc.) water does exist in your tank. Since water is insoluble in gasoline, it sinks to the bottom of your tank -
As long as it remains below the level of your fuel pickup tube it will not affect your engine. The problem is water is soluble in ethanol and will travel thru your engine fuel system.


A water/ethanol mixture, being heavier than gas, will sink to the bottom of the gas tank, leaving a lower octane gas on top. This low octane gas (lean fuel) can cause performance issues with 4-stroke engines, and can cause damage to 2-stroke engines.


Excess water in engines will also cause premature rusting.




3. Ethanol is an amazing solvent and cleansing agent.


High levels of ethanol can dissolve, deteriorate and breakdown solid material, including rubber, plastic, fiberglass and even aluminum and steel.


Ethanol will also cleanse and release corrosive matter (gunk),  varnish and rust, which will travel through the engine and clog fuel filters, carburetor jets and injectors. In many outboard engines it will also contaminate the fuel present in your fuel tank.


Ethanol tends to dissolve certain resins, which can travel through the engine intake and coat intake valves, causing sticking and bent pushrods or worse. This has been well documented for boats equipped with certain fiberglass gas tanks, made before the early 1990's.


The more gunk (rust, sediment, dirt, etc.) collected in your outboard engine over the years, the more noticeable the  cleansing effects of alcohol will be noticed.


Ethanol's solvent and cleansing abilities can lead to engine failure and expensive (avoidable) repairs.




4. Ethanol can wear-down and dry-out the plastic and rubber parts in your engine.


Rubber seals and plastic material used in older boats are often not compatible with alcohol. Ethanol will make engine parts dry and brittle. Since ethanol is a cleansing and drying solution, it will clean the oil right off the internal components of a 2 stroke,  Extra lubrication is necessary.


5.  Ethanol blends can cause additional contamination by reacting chemically with MTBE fuel blends.


Do not mix gas that contains MTBE with ethanol E10.


Mixing MTBE fuel with ethanol blend fuel can create a gel-like substance that clogs passages in carburetors.
Stalled engines and engine damage are the result. Fuel injected engines have shown less damage, than carbureted engines, from this gel-like substance.


6. Engines with older fiberglass gas tanks have the greatest risks when using fuel with ethanol.


Fiberglass gas tanks can "deteriorate" from ethanol,  causing this degraded resin stuff, (you'll see "black sludge") to circulate through your engine, coating intake manifolds and building up on intake valves - which basically destroys your engine.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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Offline jackelope

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 08:57:18 AM »
keeps going and going and going...

Quote
How to Prevent Damage From Ethanol in Your Outboard Motor:  Copyright 2001-2007   www.theoutboardwizard.com   www.evinrude-parts.com  NY -  FL.  All Rights Reserved.Evinrude-Parts - The Outboard Wizard - Lindenhurst Outboard Inc.
Certified OMC-BRP Evinrude Johnson ETec Dealer & Service Station
305 E. Montauk Hwy. Lindenhurst, NY 11757


Outboard Wizard Marine Shop:  (631) 991-4491  
Technical Help Line: (631) 514-1525
www.theoutboardwizard.com          www.evinrude-parts.com  



1. If possible, try to avoid using ethanol fuel blends in your outboard and marine engines.  


If you are unable to obtain alcohol-free fuel in your area, you SHOULD TEST THE FUEL YOU BUY to assure the ethanol content is at or below 10 %.


2. Follow engine manufacturer gas recommendations. Check with your marine motor manufacturer and/or check your owners manual.
.
3.  Always use fresh, high-quality gasoline and replace it every 2-4 weeks. Always avoid storing gas in tank for greater than 90 days. Remember that gas with ethanol has a shorter shelf life - use it up and replace it quickly.
Buy gas from busy gas stations - Fuel turnover is faster, gas will be fresher.


4. Check your gas tank for the presence of water and remove all water before adding an ethanol blend.


5. Avoid running on bottom of gas tank (where most water will sink).


6. Do not mix MTBE and ethanol-blended fuels.
Run out or remove your old (MTBE) fuel before putting the new ethanol fuel in your tank.


7.  Make sure your motor is equipped with a water separating fuel filter.
Evinrude E-Tec's, and other newer engine models have them, other engines may or may not. The installation of a water separator in the fuel line will help with small amounts of water.  Some marine engines are also equipped with water sensors.


8.  Check fuel system for contaminants and clogging and replace your fuel filter often.
Fuel filters should be replaced at least every 50 -100 hours.


9.  Evinrude - Johnson 2 + 4 fuel conditioner will stabilize fuel, inhibit corrosion and absorb moisture (water) without adding alcohol to the fuel.  Add fuel conditioner at every gas fill-up.


10 . Evinrude (OMC BRP) also recommends carbon guard be added to the fuel tank each time you add gasoline, (Reduces possibility of rusting, piston ring sticking and carbon build-up, better overall engine performance, increases engine life), but it will not remove water.


11. Keep your engine well-tuned and lubricated.


12.  If your engine has an older fiberglass gas tank, replace it. (Check with manufacturer if your tank was designed to tolerate alcohol fuels).  Newer fiberglass tanks are double-lined and made of special material that holds up to ethanol.
----------------------
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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Offline Shootmoore

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 09:32:49 AM »
My father and I both use Stabill Marine (The green stuff) in our boat motors.  I think there are several different brands out there and I am sure several are good.  Good find on the info jackelope, some of that is what I read when I researched it as well.  I learned the hard way by having to replace injectors in a 25 hp.

Shootmoore

Offline fishcrazy

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 07:05:59 PM »
I didn't read all that yet. The problem is the alcohol has attracted water. My tank is aluminium and must swet when it was cold and warmed up. My boat lives in my dad's unheated shop. He noticed the outside covered in water one day when it had been really cold at night and warmed up fast.

The alcohol doesn't let the water separate. The injection system on the Optimax is very picky. For example manufacture calls for NGK spark plugs. My mechanic told me about a demo they did when he was going to mercury school for this motor. They installed champion plugs that were suppose to be for this motor according to champion. They were just different enough to cause it to run ruff. When they changed them back to NGK it ran perfect.

I'm figuring this picky computer didn't like the water in the fuel and that is what caused it to act up. Water and alcohol can have an affect on several things like timing and other things that this engine would monitor to tell how much fuel and when to make the plugs fire or not.

This is just my thoughts based on what  I know and have learned so far. and that ain't much. I'm going to do more research on it as well.

One other note. many fuel "stabilizers" are just a sales pitch. Look at the components. Many are alcohol based!!!! From what I read on another forum none of them actually stabilize fuel and prevent separation. This is why I want to know the difference between a stabilizer and conditioner. The conditioners I looked at contained an enzyme that is suppose to basically eat the alcohol or something along those lines. I'm thinking that is why it didn't work right away but after 2 days it worked fine. just my thoughts.

jackelope. Thanks for the info I will read it when I have more time. It's always good to have people like you to have conversations with.

Kris
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Offline jimmyt

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Re: Just a heads up. BEWARE OF GAS WITH ALCOHOL!!!
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 09:54:05 PM »
I buy fuel without ethanol and have not had any problems check with your local fuel dealers

 


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