Here comes the night hunting changes

[Machias]

Hello.  The Department of Fish and Wildlife has decided to make some changes to the night-hunting rule, but we are not going to ban it.  We are going to draft a proposal in the next few weeks, and then I will send it to all of you for feedback.  

We will take our ideas for changes from the night-hunting rules of 11 other states around the country.  I’m not sure yet what we will propose.  Please wait for me to send you a draft before you send me more comments.  I really appreciate your cooperation.  You are a good bunch of folks to work with.  

You’ll hear from me again soon.

 

Lori Preuss, WSBA #33045

WDFW Criminal Justice Liaison &

Administrative Regulations Coordinator

Lori.preuss@dfw.wa.gov

360.902.2930

[Kain]

 

[Curly]

I wish they had something better to do with their time.    

I will send her a note.

[bobcat]

I wish they had something better to do with their time.    

I will send her a note.

Did you read this part:   

Please wait for me to send you a draft before you send me more comments.

[Kain]

This is what happens when nobody gets involved.  I would be mad at them but I think I will be more mad at all the hunters that just sit on their asses and do nothing.  I think Im getting an ulcer.    

[grundy53]

 

[Kain]

I posted this letter on Predator Masters and NPHA asking for help in stopping this.     Any other groups we can get help from?  Please if you have not written an email yet please send one now.  Ignore her comment on waiting until the proposal has been written.  They obviously ignore us all the time.

[carpsniperg2]

 

[bobcat]

Please if you have not written an email yet please send one now.  Ignore her comment on waiting until the proposal has been written.  They obviously ignore us all the time.

I agree on ignoring her comment. But, you might consider sending your letters to somebody other than her, such as the commissioners.

[bobcat]

Try sending letters to these two:

director@dfw.wa.gov

commission@dfw.wa.gov

[Kain]

Please if you have not written an email yet please send one now.  Ignore her comment on waiting until the proposal has been written.  They obviously ignore us all the time.

I agree on ignoring her comment. But, you might consider sending your letters to somebody other than her, such as the commissioners.

I totally agree.  She does not like it when you do that.  Here is the email she sent me after I included lots of other departments in my emails to her.

Thank you, Naithan.  If you could, please send further e-mails on this issue to me only, rather than to me, the Commission, Wildthing, and the Enforcement Office.  The reason is that this proposal may not go forward, so none of those other entities should be involved yet.  I represent the Enforcement Program and am also the agency’s rules coordinator, so my e-mailing just me, you are well covered.  Please pass this on to anyone you share these e-mails with.  Thanks!

All the more reason to do it.   

[Alan K]

Such *censored*!

I say get the message out there to everyone ahead of time that way they know our opinion and can shut it down without letting it go anywhere.

By the way, I can just picture some moron down there in Georgia trying to be a bad-ass with his night-vision AR trying to 'snipe' eyes. . . Makes me sick.

[bobcat]

If somebody could find out who is really in charge of this, and then we could direct all correspondence to that person. Just like with the last fiasco (the special permit changes) if we had known Dave Ware was the guy in charge of it we could have sent letters to him, and cc'd the commission.

[luvtohnt]

Just sent an email to Lori, the commission, and the director. I hope that a flood of emails in opposition will stop this before a draft can be made. It seems if they get to the draft stage then it is as good as law!!

Brandon

[Bob33]

Let's hope they haven't already concocted a position of "strong public input and support" for change.

[rainshadow1]

Fred, Who are the "Good bunch of folks..." ? Sounds like that "bunch" need our support.

[billythekidrock]

Here is what I do know.

Lori Preuss has been very accommodating and up front with this issue and is willing to keep people informed.

I would suggest two things.
1. Give her some time to send out the draft before sending anymore comments.
2. Get organized with Adnahounsman and the new predator group. He has been in constant contact with Lori and is working on a few things.

[cwuwildcat]

I wonder how and why they picked the 11 states they did?

[Kain]

Here is what I do know.

Lori Preuss has been very accommodating and up front with this issue and is willing to keep people informed.

I would suggest two things.
1. Give her some time to send out the draft before sending anymore comments.
2. Get organized with Adnahounsman and the new predator group. He has been in constant contact with Lori and is working on a few things.

I am not interested in compromising ANYTHING or "working with" them on anything.  So waiting for the draft is not necessary.  I am so pissed off right now I can barely contain myself from writing how I really feel.  I know that wouldnt do any good.  I will look into the new group further but if they are interested in anything other than TOTAL opposition to any more restrictions they are not for me.

[rainshadow1]

Not that I don't know what you're feeling, Kain (welcome to dealing with bureacracy)... but if you don't control that, then what they'll do is go ahead and do whatever they want, without any input. It's a tightrope...

[billythekidrock]

Here is what I do know.

Lori Preuss has been very accommodating and up front with this issue and is willing to keep people informed.

I would suggest two things.
1. Give her some time to send out the draft before sending anymore comments.
2. Get organized with Adnahounsman and the new predator group. He has been in constant contact with Lori and is working on a few things.

I am not interested in compromising ANYTHING or "working with" them on anything.  So waiting for the draft is not necessary.  I am so pissed off right now I can barely contain myself from writing how I really feel.  I know that wouldnt do any good.  I will look into the new group further but if they are interested in anything other than TOTAL opposition to any more restrictions they are not for me.

So you would pester them with emails and piss them off over a draft without even seeing it? That will not be very productive.

All I am saying is lets get our ducks in a row and have all the facts so we can cover all the bases.

[Kain]

Not that I don't know what you're feeling, Kain (welcome to dealing with bureacracy)... but if you don't control that, then what they'll do is go ahead and do whatever they want, without any input. It's a tightrope...

I hear ya.  If only a few people do it I totally agree but if we all do it then I think they will have to listen.  The problem with compromising anything is this:  They want to ban night hunting, we want to keep it.  So we dont loose ALL opportunity we compromise and accept some new restrictions.  This means that we have lost and they have gained.  Heads they win tails we loose.  Am I wrong?  I will wait until I calm down to contact them further but I doubt I will change my mind and I hope the rest of you feel the same way.  

[Kain]

Here is what I do know.

Lori Preuss has been very accommodating and up front with this issue and is willing to keep people informed.

I would suggest two things.
1. Give her some time to send out the draft before sending anymore comments.
2. Get organized with Adnahounsman and the new predator group. He has been in constant contact with Lori and is working on a few things.

I am not interested in compromising ANYTHING or "working with" them on anything.  So waiting for the draft is not necessary.  I am so pissed off right now I can barely contain myself from writing how I really feel.  I know that wouldnt do any good.  I will look into the new group further but if they are interested in anything other than TOTAL opposition to any more restrictions they are not for me.

So you would pester them with emails and piss them off over a draft without even seeing it? That will not be very productive.

All I am saying is lets get our ducks in a row and have all the facts so we can cover all the bases.

Absolutely I would.  And if we all did the same it might make a difference.  But I can already see that we will play their game and we will get the short end AGAIN.  And when they want to do a similar thing in the future it will be the same.  (cougar, bear, hounds) Again and again until there is very little left worth even fighting for.   I dont know why anyone would worry about pissing them off when they clearly dont care about pissing US off.  Like I said I will wait until I calm down to decide what I will do.

[billythekidrock]

Not that I don't know what you're feeling, Kain (welcome to dealing with bureacracy)... but if you don't control that, then what they'll do is go ahead and do whatever they want, without any input. It's a tightrope...

I agree. Especially since it is still in the draft phase.

Now, if it were a proposal that caught us off guard or had no input into, instead of a draft.......then yes, I say email them right and left.

[billythekidrock]

Here is what I do know.

Lori Preuss has been very accommodating and up front with this issue and is willing to keep people informed.

I would suggest two things.
1. Give her some time to send out the draft before sending anymore comments.
2. Get organized with Adnahounsman and the new predator group. He has been in constant contact with Lori and is working on a few things.

I am not interested in compromising ANYTHING or "working with" them on anything.  So waiting for the draft is not necessary.  I am so pissed off right now I can barely contain myself from writing how I really feel.  I know that wouldnt do any good.  I will look into the new group further but if they are interested in anything other than TOTAL opposition to any more restrictions they are not for me.

So you would pester them with emails and piss them off over a draft without even seeing it? That will not be very productive.

All I am saying is lets get our ducks in a row and have all the facts so we can cover all the bases.

Absolutely I would.  And if we all did the same it might make a difference.  But I can already see that we will play their game and we will get the short end AGAIN.  And when they want to do a similar thing in the future it will be the same.  (cougar, bear, hounds) Again and again until there is very little left worth even fighting for.   I dont know why anyone would worry about pissing them off when they clearly dont care about pissing US off.  Like I said I will wait until I calm down to decide what I will do.

Read everything again....slowly. This is a draft. We have a chance for input and Lori Preuss is not hiding anything like the others have in the past.

Do you really think that I would stand for this? Do you think that I would steer you, or any site member wrong?

This time last year a F&W site member told us that there was nothing we could do about losing bear season in August. I took that as a challenge and posted a short message and commission members emails on a dozen hunting sites.  F&W decided to look at it for a year and only took away a couple weeks in a few areas.

I am not saying that I am responsible for saving August, as I know that there were lots of people involved. What I am saying is that I know the power of the people/email and I understand where you are coming from.

I also know the F&W and if they can take it from us or charge us for it...they will.

We can't act like neanderthals....we need to be organized and polite. Otherwise we will lose our opportunity and our credibility.

[Kain]

Why do I need to see the draft to know that I dont think there should be any changes?  Do you guys think there needs to be some changes made?  Maybe I am being unreasonable...very possible.  Do we need more permits?  Do we need night vision and lights for deer and elk?  Do we need more weapon restrictions for hunters?  Is it OK to shoot a cougar out of a tree with a rifle during the day but not shoot a coyote on the ground with the same weapon at night?  I am open to listening to you guys, if you really think I should keep an open mind.  If they get the idea that we are willing to look at their "draft" that we will be open to it at all. 

Bear hunting is a prime example of what I am talking about.  Sure we won that round because we came together as a group.  And even though we lost a huge chunk of cougar season, somehow we think we won something.  But then they turn around the very next year and reduced the season by 2 weeks in some units anyway.  They dont respect us no matter how polite we are.  If they want something they will push it through.  Why?....Because we let them.

[carpsniperg2]

 

[Bofire]

 :)Kain it is just another fight. You can try to rush in and expend energy swinging wildly and bravely only to get your a## kicked by an opponent who covers and or bobs and weaves.
We have to anticipate those "bobs and weaves" be a step ahead, that is hard when you are emotional/angry. I don't think we need changes either, right now we have a chance to convince them, wiht logic. Lets try.
Let us gather data explore other states, other studies, quote them...
and if that does not work




FIRE BOMBS

Carl

[Kain]

Are you sure we cant just call them racists, rednecks, knuckle draggers, and nazis, lawyer up, threaten lawsuits and get them to cower in the corner.  That always works against us.  
I hear you guys, I do.  I never said I was gonna write them nasty emails or start cussing them out or anything.  I just think it would be a good idea to let them know that we (as a united group) are not open to any discussion if it includes restricting ANY more hunting.  Then if there is anything in the "draft" that we think is reasonable (doubtful) we could "reluctantly" give ground.  But they already have the idea that we are somehow open to some more restrictions as long as the ALL MIGHTY DEPARTMENT leaves us some scraps.

[billythekidrock]

:)Kain it is just another fight. You can try to rush in and expend energy swinging wildly and bravely only to get your a## kicked by an opponent who covers and or bobs and weaves.
We have to anticipate those "bobs and weaves" be a step ahead, that is hard when you are emotional/angry. I don't think we need changes either, right now we have a chance to convince them, wiht logic. Lets try.
Let us gather data explore other states, other studies, quote them...
and if that does not work




FIRE BOMBS

Carl

That has got to be one of the best posts this year. 

[billythekidrock]

Are you sure we cant just call them racists, rednecks, knuckle draggers, and nazis, lawyer up, threaten lawsuits and get them to cower in the corner.  That always works against us.  
I hear you guys, I do.  I never said I was gonna write them nasty emails or start cussing them out or anything.  I just think it would be a good idea to let them know that we (as a united group) are not open to any discussion if it includes restricting ANY more hunting.  Then if there is anything in the "draft" that we think is reasonable (doubtful) we could "reluctantly" give ground.  But they already have the idea that we are somehow open to some more restrictions as long as the ALL MIGHTY DEPARTMENT leaves us some scraps.

And I hear you... and agree with you. BUT I am giving them the benefit this time since the person is willing to be forthcoming. Because of that openness I am willing to follow her request of no more emails until the proposal is out. Then we need to come from an organized stand point..and if that don't work then we take bofire's advice.

[Kain]

:)Kain it is just another fight. You can try to rush in and expend energy swinging wildly and bravely only to get your a## kicked by an opponent who covers and or bobs and weaves.
We have to anticipate those "bobs and weaves" be a step ahead, that is hard when you are emotional/angry. I don't think we need changes either, right now we have a chance to convince them, wiht logic. Lets try.
Let us gather data explore other states, other studies, quote them...
and if that does not work




FIRE BOMBS

Carl

That has got to be one of the best posts this year.  

Yeah because logic and facts have always worked against them in the past.    I see I am the odd man out on this so I will take your advice but if you guys think you are gonna be a step ahead or convince them of anything, I hope you are not fooling yourselves.  Even if they get only 1/2 of the restrictions or new permits they are looking for you are still loosing and they will be right back at it on the next issue.  You guys are going to haggle with someone, with nothing to sell, with the hope that they wont charge you full price.

[billythekidrock]

:)Kain it is just another fight. You can try to rush in and expend energy swinging wildly and bravely only to get your a## kicked by an opponent who covers and or bobs and weaves.
We have to anticipate those "bobs and weaves" be a step ahead, that is hard when you are emotional/angry. I don't think we need changes either, right now we have a chance to convince them, wiht logic. Lets try.
Let us gather data explore other states, other studies, quote them...
and if that does not work




FIRE BOMBS

Carl

That has got to be one of the best posts this year. 

Yeah because logic and facts have always worked against them in the past.    I see I am the odd man out on this so I will take your advice but if you guys think you are gonna be a step ahead or convince them of anything, I hope you are not fooling yourselves.  Even if they get only 1/2 of the restrictions or new permits they are looking for you are still loosing and they will be right back at it on the next issue.  You guys are going to haggle with someone, with nothing to sell, with the hope that they wont charge you full price.

Would you rather argue and lose everything or negotiate and only lose a little?
The problem is that F&W is going to take something away regardless. We can not stop them, only slow them down.

[Kain]

I would rather go in saying: "Dont even bother writing a draft because you will not only NOT have our (a united and angry community) support we will fight you with everything we have to stop it".  If you are right we have nothing to loose because we have already lost, we just dont know how badly.

[billythekidrock]

I would rather go in saying: "Dont even bother writing a draft because you will not only NOT have our (a united and angry community) support we will fight you with everything we have to stop it".  If you are right we have nothing to loose because we have already lost, we just dont know how badly.

What do we have to fight it with?

[Gringo31]

We can fight with......emails, voices, meetings, petitions, thousands of signatures....oh yeah, that worked really well on the wolf issue. 

I won't be sending any emails but I'm with Kain.  Any changes will only take away what we currently have.  I'm willing to put some money up and bet against ANYONE thinks that WDFW has come up with a way to truly increase our hunting opportunities.  You may or may not be surprised on the BS that runs deep, as does the agenda.  I'll use this example and try to keep details out.  Let's say there was a state called Schmlaska, where permits are required to access certain National Forests with groups.  The price of that access went from say....around 60 cents/person/day to about 5 bucks.  BUT.........if when you are giving that tour, you agree to talk about global warming etc, etc, etc, they will decrease your price to around one dollar.

Pick your topic in our WDFW, if they are looking into it, we are going to get hozed.  The only guarantee is that they will come out and explain to us that they did it to make things better and we should like it.

P.S.  I like Kain am in a bad mood and am to the point where I EXPECT everything to only get worse.  There is no more common sense, accountability, credibility or even honestly.  Not in govt.
 

[Kain]

I would rather go in saying: "Dont even bother writing a draft because you will not only NOT have our (a united and angry community) support we will fight you with everything we have to stop it".  If you are right we have nothing to loose because we have already lost, we just dont know how badly.

What do we have to fight it with?

Thats a good question.  I am open to ideas.  What do we have?  We need to work on the "united community" first I think. Like calling out to hunting groups for help.  Then see what we can come up with.  There is the usual stuff like letters and meetings.  Is there any legal recourse?  Even if there is little chance of winning we can at least make them pay to fight it.  Political pressure on local and state politicians to stand up for us.  I am just throwing things out there not saying they are great ideas.  I just dont think we should be playing along or bargaining away our hunting right out of the gate.  They do seem to be reaching out to us they must have some desire to have our support.  It seems more like a facade to me but if they truly care what we think why shouldn't they know that we hate what they are doing?

[Skycruiser]

Hello.  The Department of Fish and Wildlife has decided to make some changes to the night-hunting rule, but we are not going to ban it.

WTF???!!!

IS THIS AMERICA??? 

I can only hope there's someone here who can tell us how to fight this legally.

[Kain]

Hello.  The Department of Fish and Wildlife has decided to make some changes to the night-hunting rule, but we are not going to ban it.

WTF???!!!

IS THIS AMERICA??? 

I can only hope there's someone here who can tell us how to fight this legally.

but we are not going to ban it.

Oh thank you great and powerful WDFW.  Thank you for listening to my pitiful excuse for an oppinion as you do what ever you want to me anyways.  You always make me feel like I matter as you rape my hunting opportunities while charging me more for the scraps you leave me. 

I better stop while I still have some stomach lining left. 

[grundy53]

i have another cynical thought.... now that they realize how much we care about this they will figure out how to make more money off of this. such as make a special night hunting licence.

[stumprat]

I agree with BTKR.
I have recieved all of the e-mails. And have talked with Lori on the phone a few times. So far she seems very forthcoming.

Issues like these are the reason I have joined the Western Washington Predator Hunters Association (WWPHA), And the NPHA

Kain,
To fight or negotiate. From an organized front. We first have to get organized.
With the recent rise in interest of predator hunting. I believe this is just the first of many regulation changes.
But so far this is just in the draft stage. Public comment in not scheduled until August. And that is only if they decide to go any further with it in June. From what I have gathered so far. Dave Ware was not aware of the proposal. It seems to be stemming from the Enforcement division. As it stands right now. I find it refreshing that Lori is open to e-mail suggestions and phone calls.

I will respect her wishes. Until June. If it goes any further than that. Then I will E-mail  the commission. And burn up the phone lines.

[stumprat]

Here is a copy of what I sent to Lori.





Lori,
First I want to thank your department. For giving us the opprtunity to voice our suggestions on this matter.
 
With such limited amounts of outdoor activity conducted at night. I am still unsure why this is an issue. Even as predator hunting grows as a sport. There is a very, very small percentage of us that are even willing to hunt at night.
 
If the changes are unavoidable. A firearm restriction is the only change that would make sense to me. Although my thoughts are that a firearm restriction (Shotguns) should only be made on public lands. I would urge you to let private farms. Use thier discretion. As to how to handle thier predator control. In the open fields of farmlands. Many of my shots although closer than daytime hunting. Are still out of shotgun range.
 
The issue of predator control permits. In my opinion. Would cause even more divisiveness between hunters. And that in my opinion would not only hurt us as sportsmen. But the W.D.F.W. as well.
 
 
Thank you for your time.


This E-mail was sent on my own behalf. NOT as a representative of the WWPHA.

[WDFW-SUX]

Just another game law im not going to follow. If its not based in Science I dont care... that means pier reviewed not "trust us" science.


These laws are for people who are stupid.  If I want to shoot a Coon after midnight Im going to do it.

[Gringo31]

The frustration here is due to the fact that the public comment period most often is a formality, not the final piece of bringing together all data.