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Author Topic: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction  (Read 16275 times)

Offline seth30

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 10:36:08 AM »
 :jacked: How does an argument always going into left field :dunno:
Rather be dead than cool.
Kurt Cobain

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 10:43:50 AM »
Me too... aren't we (as a group) proponents of wildlife habitat and increased access?

   Good stuff Wolfbait.   More wilderness, MORE wildlands, MORE roadless areas More Property restrictions! Also being a sledder and occasional ATV rider, and 4 wheeler-we have been fighting these folks for YEARS. and you will come to find that many many hunters are all for it! Right Turbo?

Do you get to ride your sled on private land much?  I would think most wildland user groups would be glad to see this happen...what am I missing?

At the sacrifice of private property rights.....Hell no.

Who said anything about increased access? I didn't see *censored* about increased access.

Public lands are our land and we should be respectful enough to allow other interests to use our land for their enjoyment. We already have wilderness area's that prevent motorized use anyway. There's no reason snowmobiles or atv's should be booted off of National forests. Though I'm not a proponent of riding or driving anywhere you please, it should be managed for moderation. This can be done in a number of ways without discouraging the enjoyment of those who enjoy offroading and snowmobiling.
I tend to agree about the ATV use, particularly on open roads.  As long as they stay where they belong.  :twocents:

I guess what I was thinking with regard to access was increased blocks of public land means increased public access. 

Offline Atroxus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 11:00:17 AM »
At the sacrifice of private property rights.....Hell no.

I checked the bill again, and again could find nothing about private property. The only thing I did find about property management is the following.

SEC. 5. WILDLIFE CORRIDOR MANAGEMENT ON PUBLIC LANDS.
(a) Finding- Section 102(a)( 8 ) of the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 () is amended by inserting ‘, including important wildlife corridors,’ before ‘in their natural condition’.
(b) Definition of Areas of Critical Environmental Concern- Section 103(a) of the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (43 U.S.C.1702(a)) is amended by inserting ‘(including important wildlife corridors)’ after ‘fish and wildlife resources’.

Offline haus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 11:02:34 AM »
I thought it was just an effort to  provide more contigous habitat blocks for wildlife, I did not think they had any specific animals in mind.
lol so..... (D) develop management strategies to enhance the ability of native fish, wildlife, and plant species to migrate or respond to shifting habitats within existing habitats and corridors.

ex: The secretary of the interior and the USFWS picks an endangered species and says 'well it migrates this way and that way and needs that habitat, we should adjust the cooridor to accomodate this species.....I don't see a single provision that would prevent such a thing from happening. do you?
RMEF

Offline haus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 11:07:48 AM »
I tend to agree about the ATV use, particularly on open roads.  As long as they stay where they belong.  :twocents:

I guess what I was thinking with regard to access was increased blocks of public land means increased public access. 
hmm, so where does it say anything about acquiring private property to link tracks of public land?

Such a bill would be great but there are too many provisions in this bill that leave the door open for loss of liberty, and the increased federal control part.

A bill that proposed linking public lands together through the acquisition of private property would be a bill that I'm interested in. but this bill, no this bill falls short of that and contains to much wording that could be later exploited by environmentalist groups and politically liberal federal authority.
RMEF

Offline haus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 11:08:57 AM »
At the sacrifice of private property rights.....Hell no.

I checked the bill again, and again could find nothing about private property.
Exactly
RMEF

Offline Atroxus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 11:21:23 AM »
At the sacrifice of private property rights.....Hell no.

I checked the bill again, and again could find nothing about private property.
Exactly

Wow, it seems to me like you are intentionally ignoring the key part of my post. The text from the bill does mention public land. So it would stand to reason that if it had anything to do with private land it would mention that as well. It does not.

Offline haus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 11:23:59 AM »
At the sacrifice of private property rights.....Hell no.

I checked the bill again, and again could find nothing about private property.
Exactly

Wow, it seems to me like you are intentionally ignoring the key part of my post. The text from the bill does mention public land. So it would stand to reason that if it had anything to do with private land it would mention that as well. It does not.

so if its not about public land then whats the section about reimbursement to farmers in there for?
RMEF

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 11:26:33 AM »
So it looks more like a bill requiring consideration for wildlife during planning of roadbuilding, mineral extraction, logging...that sort of thing.  I'm in favor of that kind of management, as long as reasonable consideration is the function.

Offline haus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 11:36:22 AM »
So it looks more like a bill requiring consideration for wildlife during planning of roadbuilding, mineral extraction, logging...that sort of thing.  I'm in favor of that kind of management, as long as reasonable consideration is the function.
check out the comment from the poster at the bottom of this page. The initial story is without enough detail to satisfy my understanding of the purposes for this bill, but the comments at the bottom from one poster go much deeper into it. Not to say this person is right or wrong, I don't know either way, but it reasons to believe it sounds possible and if that is the case well......
http://www.cfact.org/a/1756/New-Congressional-initiative-to-create-wildlife-corridors?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cfact+%28CFACT%29

Again the problem is to do with how this is being done and who's behind it, this leads into an understanding of how one should expect such legislation to be regulated. Look at the wolves for example, a poorly handled poorly motivated reintroduction pushed by an organization who has much larger goals in mind. The results of which have caused far more resentment towards wolves than there should be.

Kinda of like when certain gray wolf biologists drag out indentifing wolf packs as long as possible. Sure its all in accordance with established scientific practice and rules for identification of wolf packs, but when its stretched to its limits...... there's a reason this is happening and its not for scientific reasons.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 11:41:56 AM by haus »
RMEF

Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »
Here's a tad bit of info. :yike:

http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summer-09/su09-congress_gone_mad.pdf


05-22-2009,  American Alps Legacy Project envisions a bigger, better national park, “We will not cut people out of areas of traditional use,��  said Davis. “We’ll make sure lots of areas are left for hunting.��  Harts Pass, a popular snowmobile area, is not included in the study area. More hiking trails will be available in the park, isolated from hunting. “People think the scenic corridor is protected, but it could be developed,��  said Jim Davis, executive director for NCCC. He said, “it might not change in the next 10 to 20 years, but as the social structure changes, the land now under Forest Service management could support mining, downhill ski areas and small hydroelectric projects. As energy prices go up, it becomes more economically feasible to develop renewable energy that could de-water streams and string power lines to the west,��
Statements like these are scare tactics that the environmentalists use to deceive people. As most of you may know, it is very hard to do anything to state, federal, or even private property without the environmentalists interfering
The American Alps project would protect critical watershed landscape features; extend wildlife corridors and non-motorized recreation opportunities to the growing population from the Puget Sound area. Environmentalists’’ statements like these woo people away from reality. The environmentalists pick these wolves to gain control of the land with rulings through the ESA. They have done it with the spotted owl, the salmon, and the list goes on. NOTE: The area being studied for more protection includes land on both sides of Highway 20 just a few miles past Mazama

http://wolfcrossing.org/2009/05/26/wild-earth-guardians-launches-rural-cleansing-campaign-against-gila-residents-and-ranching/

Wild Earth Guardians launches rural cleansing campaign against Gila residents and ranching
Protecting the Gila

WildEarth Guardians wants to secure lasting and landmark protection for the endangered wildlands and wildlife of the Gila Bioregion in southwestern New Mexico and southeastern Arizona. Our vision is a healthy population of wolves surrounded by millions of acres of newly designated wilderness. Eventually we believe that America’s first Wilderness Area should become its next great National Park or National Monument. How could such a bold vision come to fruition? Come find out about WildEarth Guardians’ strategy to lead the way in protecting the Gila. We look forward to a great conversation! Please RSVP to Carol Norton, 505-988-9126, ext. 1150 or cnorton@wildearthguardians.org.






No Hunting

No cross country skiing

No snowmobiling

No fishing

and the list goes on!




 

Offline turbo

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2010, 12:23:06 PM »
   Good stuff Wolfbait.   More wilderness, MORE wildlands, MORE roadless areas More Property restrictions! Also being a sledder and occasional ATV rider, and 4 wheeler-we have been fighting these folks for YEARS. and you will come to find that many many hunters are all for it! Right Turbo?

EXACTLY!! All you have to do is look at DU and RMEF. They push this stuff too. They use us to give give money and support to the Sierra club to help "create wilderness" in the name of hunting.. yahhhh right.. And the wolfs are here to create balance.. lol

What WILL happen is we will lose way more hunting areas, have a lot more regulations and rules and lose tons of access before hunters actually wake up, unite, and become a force.

Offline haus

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2010, 12:27:52 PM »
So how much money has been given to the Sierra Club by DU and the RMEF?
RMEF

Offline wolfbait

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2010, 02:01:56 PM »
THE DRAFT OREGON WOLF CONSERVATION AND MANAGEMENT PLAN:

The old saying about how you never really know someone until you have gone
through a stressful situation with them is one of those truisms that
policemen and soldiers know all too well.  I suspect that the people of
Oregon are similarly seeing the true nature of their State Fish and Wildlife
Department as they grapple with the wolves starting to come over their
horizon.

Reading this Plan, tells me that the Oregon State Fish and Wildlife
Department has become an instrument of those who would abandon big game
hunters, ignore ranchers, and generally look the other way as rural
residents and communities are depressed by the coming wolf packs.  As a
Virginian that has observed State fish and wildlife agencies across the
nation for years I am not surprised by this fact.  The Plan exudes the
values that recently drove a vote in Oregon to ban the only two effective
hunting methods used to control cougar populations.  Today, Oregonians, like
their southern (California) cousins that prohibit all management of cougars,
prohibit hunters from using dogs or bait to hunt cougars and again like
Californians cover up the cost, reasons, and numbers of cougars that are
killed annually by Federal government hunters paid in part by all the
taxpayers of the United States.  The Plan clearly is intended to likewise
mask and ignore where possible the depredation of wolves on big game,
livestock, and other animals.  State funds and increasingly Federal funds or
the funds from the quasi-governmental partners are and will in the future be
inadequate to keep pace with the approaching storm of depredations as the
wolves populate Oregon and surrounding states.

The Plan downplays rural residents concerns with safety with the attitude of
the Nazi Propaganda Minister Goebbels who believed that public opinion was
the responsibility of government and that disagreement by citizens was
merely a failure of citizens to behave properly.  The two paragraphs devoted
to this topic on page 71 are a disgrace.

The misinformation about big game impacts is especially bad.  Buried in the
blizzard of "science" in the Plan is the excuse the State and Federal
bureaucrats will use when ranchers and big game hunters are gone and wolves
endanger both rural and urban communities.  To wit (on page 56), "Much has
been written in the scientific literature regarding the interaction and
effects of wolves on prey numbers, but few common conclusions have been
drawn."  Need more be said?  Wolves in Oregon will cause all the harm they
have in Montana and they will learn to behave in ways that NO ONE CAN
PREDICT in different situations.  Wolf behavior in Alberta or Alaska was no
predictor of wolf behavior in the US Rockies and wolf behavior will be
different in Oregon just as it is in Wisconsin or Asia.  We are talking
about large and smart wild dogs, do you think pit bull behavior predicts
golden retriever behavior?  Do you think an urban rottweiller used as a
guard by drug dealers predicts how a dachshund will behave in a
schoolteachers' home in Redmond?  Remember that no wildlife biologist nor
any piece of "scientific literature" predicted that wild turkeys could live
behind Iowa barns or chase mailmen in Boston suburbs.  No one predicted that
Canada geese could live on bluegrass, raise their young in mall parking
lots, and remain resident in the millions across the northern US year
around.  NO, the turkeys needed "virgin forests", the geese "only nested in
the far north", and wolves only behave like such and such.  Those who
believe this stuff should stay away from Brooklyn or they will wind up
"owning" a bridge.

Finally, the Plan reveals the State bureaucrats intention to mimic Federal
bureaucrats regarding wolf protection.  Given the harm wolves will wreak and
the danger they pose, the penalties of up to one year in prison and a $6,250
fine for a first offense and a 5 year, $100,000 fine for a second offense
are disgraceful.  They will do just what the US Fish and Wildlife Service
and the Defenders of Wildlife intended, scare the H--- out of rural families
and ranchers.  Surely someone will be made "an example" and then wives will
tell husbands to look for work in the city and people will stay in town and
there will be fewer rural activities. Then guess who will buy the land?
Guess who will close down more land and more uses, and impose more on
private landowners because there will be fewer and fewer people who know or
care or resist?  If you guessed the same folks dumping the wolves and giving
them the status of mistletoe under the druids or some Pacific volcano on an
island populated by pagans, you get the prize.
Jim Beers

15 November 2004
http://www.klamathbasincrisis.org/wolves/wolfplanningbeers111504.htm

Offline villageidiot

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Re: The Reasons for the Canadian wolf introduction
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 09:31:53 PM »
If all the posts are correct I've read then they are already comsuming private lands by driving out the ranchers/farmers.  For instance a recent post by Wolfbait said 6 cattlement in the Gila in New Mexico are selling out because they can't afford to feedthe wolves.  Eco groups have bought some of their land and I suppose anybody with money can buy it.  Another recent post by Wolfbait told about a group that bought a big chunk and gave it back to the Forest Service.  So there you go.  Invent a species that will bankrupt a landowner you want his land and he goes belly up and sells to the highest bidder, you buy it then give it to the Feds. and your corridor plan is complete.  Right now I know of a large landowner near I-90 that has several spotted owl circles on his land.  He can't log it which he bought or else inherited from his grandpa for logging for his decendants livlihood forever.  Well, now he can't make a nickel on it so will have to sell out.   What about all the wolves that will kill off the ranchers livestock and he can't protect himself.  They will have to sell.  Then theres the Palouse giant worm thats coming to the forefront that will put wheat farmers out of business.  Also the sharptail grouse in the lowlands and the pigmy rabbit and the list goes on and on.  Private land owners of any size are doomed if the ESA is not revamped.  This is all not just speculation.  This is happening right now and has been happening for several years already.  A lot of folks are jealous or for some reason think the large landowners are rich and get excited to see much ofthis private land taken away from them.  Not many people carrying signs for the large private land owners and they are just plain hard working people trying to make a living off cows, logging or raising crops.  When they can't survice selling their resources they have to get out of the business.  I promise you they can make a living but can't do it if we throw the ESA at them and destroy them even though they've kept those species around and even enhanced the habitat for some of the species for the last 200 years.  Now for some reason all the ranchers are considered vermin wildlife destroyers.   Sickening

 


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