Repeat of "88" The end of the Entiat deer herd

[DOUBLELUNG]

Best part is the people that did both of these things, in the picture and what doublelung is talking about look at this site and are reading this and just smiling cause they never ever get in trouble!! Thanks for posting the picture nothing better than direct evidence. And thanks for the inside story as well DOUBLELUNG.  Im sure one day soon they will just shut down the entiat and swakane units winter range to ALL people from Jan 1st to april or May.

Most states with migratory big game wintering on low elevation foothills have cooperative management arrangements with the other public land management agencies to close big game winter ranges to either motorized entry, or all entry, during the critical wintering period.  It amazed me when I arrived here, and continues to blow my mind, that WDFW and USFS are so lax in protecting wintering deer and elk here.  This is where the general-funded political side of WDFW really screws the deer and elk resources.  Fawn and calf survival rates suck, generally, along the eastern Cascades, and human-caused stress is a huge part of that.  Methow Valley, Chelan-Kittias-Yakima counties, motorized ORVs should not be allowed at all below 3,500' elevation on public land November 1 to April 1.

[boneaddict]

If they do shut it down will these guys obey the rules?  They don't now.  They use their sleds until there isn't enough snow to get up the roads and then get on their motor bikes and do the same thing.  You see the tire tracks in places that would be more easily walked

RESOUNDING NO and its too FRICKIN bad.  They have shut a bunch of land down off down here that I used to snowmobile to protect the elk from shedding, and it still goes on.  Its mostly 4 wheelers jsut because thats what this particular group uses.   

Now I am a rifle hunter, bowhunter, snowmobiler, hiker, conservationist, she dhunter, photographer, etc all rolled into one.  I won't attack ANY particular USER group, just hte delinquents that ruin it for everyone.

Great posts Doublelung, and awesome picture Hardcorps.

[boneaddict]

THEY NEED to cut off all the roads in that range in the wintertime.  ONE, tribal hunting will crawl to a halt except for the serious hunters and I'll give it to em if they hike in.  TWO, harassment has become ridiculous. 

Everyone wants their home on the top of the hill in prime winterrange.  Treehuggers and hunters alike.   Most get a big dog, again tree huggers and hunters alike.  The only thing that really seperates the two is that treehuggers get pissed when the deer and elk eat their shrubs, most hunters set up a trail cam on their shrubs.

[DOUBLELUNG]

THEY NEED to cut off all the roads in that range in the wintertime.  ONE, tribal hunting will crawl to a halt except for the serious hunters and I'll give it to em if they hike in.  TWO, harassment has become ridiculous. 

Everyone wants their home on the top of the hill in prime winterrange.  Treehuggers and hunters alike.   Most get a big dog, again tree huggers and hunters alike.  The only thing that really seperates the two is that treehuggers get pissed when the deer and elk eat their shrubs, most hunters set up a trail cam on their shrubs.

Lots of truth there.

[Ironhead]

We have basically had this thread every year for quite sometime about the down fall of the Entiat. What else can be done besides shutting down the winter range? I still think there is away to make it the best quality unit in the state. It needs to be managed for an older age class of deer.  I am just throwing some ideas around, I am not a biologist nor do I pretend to be, but I do rememer the 70's and early 80's in the Entiat and Swakane. I would like to see the Entiat as the Henries of Washington. It has what big Muleys need. How would you guys really like to see it managed?
 

[Lowedog]

I would like to see the Entiat as the Henries of Washington. It has what big Muleys need. How would you guys really like to see it managed?
 

Permit only!  Shut the roads down in the winter. 

Now I am a rifle hunter, bowhunter, snowmobiler, hiker, conservationist, she dhunter, photographer, etc all rolled into one.  I won't attack ANY particular USER group, just hte delinquents that ruin it for everyone.

I think a lot of us fall into the same category. 

I don't think any one was trying to lump all of a certain user group into the cause of the problems it is the individuals who are the problem. 

[WAmuleyHunter]

agree agree agree.   

[DOUBLELUNG]

We have basically had this thread every year for quite sometime about the down fall of the Entiat. What else can be done besides shutting down the winter range? I still think there is away to make it the best quality unit in the state. It needs to be managed for an older age class of deer.  I am just throwing some ideas around, I am not a biologist nor do I pretend to be, but I do rememer the 70's and early 80's in the Entiat and Swakane. I would like to see the Entiat as the Henries of Washington. It has what big Muleys need. How would you guys really like to see it managed?
 

I agree.  However, the best way to manage the Chelan mule deer herd for older age class bucks would be to eliminate all of the late hunts - permit and general.  Close all hunting after the rut starts, last day of general MF season would be the last day of ALL licensed deer hunting.  Close the public land winter ranges to motorized entry; still plenty easy for the tribal hunters to gather deer meat, but the trophy cropping would drop about 99%.

I would support this in a heartbeat.  I have no faith, though, that we the Washington Hunting Public will willingly give up our permit opportunities to roadside a buck when he is rut-dumb and vulnerable; nor will the archers willingly give up the late Swakane general hunt.  The sad part is, we would all benefit from better hunting during the early general seasons Sept through Oct, both in terms of higher numbers of fully mature bucks in the population, and higher fawn survival leading to a more productive herd.  Manage herd size when needed with antlerless permits that run during the general season.

[boneaddict]

INDEED.    It wouldn't take long either. 

[ICEMAN]

I wouldn't mind the hound guys being allowed to whack a bunch of cats out of their either...  Probably 10 years ago I overnighted on the Tyee side in January (from snowshoe), and the cats were in big time.

[Ironhead]

Any of you guys bow hunt the Entiat or Swakane in the 70's? The number of Non typicals we would see was amazing.

[spin05]

We have basically had this thread every year for quite sometime about the down fall of the Entiat. What else can be done besides shutting down the winter range? I still think there is away to make it the best quality unit in the state. It needs to be managed for an older age class of deer.  I am just throwing some ideas around, I am not a biologist nor do I pretend to be, but I do rememer the 70's and early 80's in the Entiat and Swakane. I would like to see the Entiat as the Henries of Washington. It has what big Muleys need. How would you guys really like to see it managed?
 

I agree.  However, the best way to manage the Chelan mule deer herd for older age class bucks would be to eliminate all of the late hunts - permit and general.  Close all hunting after the rut starts, last day of general MF season would be the last day of ALL licensed deer hunting.  Close the public land winter ranges to motorized entry; still plenty easy for the tribal hunters to gather deer meat, but the trophy cropping would drop about 99%.

I would support this in a heartbeat.  I have no faith, though, that we the Washington Hunting Public will willingly give up our permit opportunities to roadside a buck when he is rut-dumb and vulnerable; nor will the archers willingly give up the late Swakane general hunt.  The sad part is, we would all benefit from better hunting during the early general seasons Sept through Oct, both in terms of higher numbers of fully mature bucks in the population, and higher fawn survival leading to a more productive herd.  Manage herd size when needed with antlerless permits that run during the general season.

The only problem i have with the season ending with the last day of rifle is then the rifle guys will be the only guys killing any deer there. I say gate it starting oct 1st for everybody. Give  out a very limited amount of permits for walk in only,say 10 or so. Leave the season times of year as they are. No snowmobiles no nothing. I have hunted the entiat in sept and its a dry tough hunt. Not many animals. Definatly not were you would find me again...

[DOUBLELUNG]

We have basically had this thread every year for quite sometime about the down fall of the Entiat. What else can be done besides shutting down the winter range? I still think there is away to make it the best quality unit in the state. It needs to be managed for an older age class of deer.  I am just throwing some ideas around, I am not a biologist nor do I pretend to be, but I do rememer the 70's and early 80's in the Entiat and Swakane. I would like to see the Entiat as the Henries of Washington. It has what big Muleys need. How would you guys really like to see it managed?
 

I agree.  However, the best way to manage the Chelan mule deer herd for older age class bucks would be to eliminate all of the late hunts - permit and general.  Close all hunting after the rut starts, last day of general MF season would be the last day of ALL licensed deer hunting.  Close the public land winter ranges to motorized entry; still plenty easy for the tribal hunters to gather deer meat, but the trophy cropping would drop about 99%.

I would support this in a heartbeat.  I have no faith, though, that we the Washington Hunting Public will willingly give up our permit opportunities to roadside a buck when he is rut-dumb and vulnerable; nor will the archers willingly give up the late Swakane general hunt.  The sad part is, we would all benefit from better hunting during the early general seasons Sept through Oct, both in terms of higher numbers of fully mature bucks in the population, and higher fawn survival leading to a more productive herd.  Manage herd size when needed with antlerless permits that run during the general season.

The only problem i have with the season ending with the last day of rifle is then the rifle guys will be the only guys killing any deer there. I say gate it starting oct 1st for everybody. Give  out a very limited amount of permits for walk in only,say 10 or so. Leave the season times of year as they are. No snowmobiles no nothing. I have hunted the entiat in sept and its a dry tough hunt. Not many animals. Definatly not were you would find me again...

Hunting the winter range in September is not very productive; nor is it much better in October.  This is a migratory herd where the animals average at least 30 air miles between summer and winter ranges.  In September and October, the places to hunt are primarily above 4,000'; there is some of that in Entiat, Swakane and Mission, but more of the summer ranges are in Clark and Alpine (wilderness), and Chiwawa and Slide Ridge. 

When less than 15% of the herd is nonmigratory, hunting 15% of the deer when it is hot and dry is not the best plan, agreed.  The problem with a very limited amount of permits, is they fuel that desire to hunt rut dumb or winter vulnerable big bucks.  The pictures go up on websites like this one.  The social and political pressure for more rises: if 10 is ok, how about 12?  Why not 15?  How about 75?  Can we give out 200?  etc.  We as hunters need to wean ourselves off harassing and skimming the best off when our herds are most vulnerable - if we actualy want what is best for the herds.  If not, then what we have now is about as good as there is potential for it to be.

[gasman]

But it's not about what best for the herd. It's about what will bring in the most $$ for the WDFW 

The WDFW will get more $$ for selling tags that allow hunters to hunt the rut or migration. If they take away the desired tags for one area, hunters go after another area with the same quality hunt.


Us as hunters want the best oppertunity to harvest an animal and if means to go after a tag that allow hunting durring teh rut or migration, then we will do it (in general).

If you think it is wrong to hunt these times of year, then don't do it. Others will be happy that there is less compatition for the desired tags.

The WDFW has screwed up our animals so bad, that this is what we have become 

[DOUBLELUNG]

But it's not about what best for the herd. It's about what will bring in the most $$ for the WDFW 

The WDFW will get more $$ for selling tags that allow hunters to hunt the rut or migration. If they take away the desired tags for one area, hunters go after another area with the same quality hunt.


Us as hunters want the best oppertunity to harvest an animal and if means to go after a tag that allow hunting durring teh rut or migration, then we will do it (in general).

If you think it is wrong to hunt these times of year, then don't do it. Others will be happy that there is less compatition for the desired tags.

The WDFW has screwed up our animals so bad, that this is what we have become 

Having worked what i consider the near-extreme ends of the spectrum as a game bio (WA & WY), I certainly have some criticisms of WDFW but they aren't demons.  They are in a serious financial bind to meet the desires of their various publics, and I am very grateful to be out of that meat grinder. 

It was a lot more fun in Wyoming, with highly abundant game and a tiny resident population, to try to figure out how to get enough hunters to kill enough animals; we weren't always successful, but there is no lack of opportunity for everyone to legally put as much meat into the freezer there as desired.  In Washington, EVEN WITH DECLINING TOTAL NUMBERS OF HUNTERS, human population growth and intolerance lead to catering to the lowest common denoiminator to try and cut up every "pie" (harvestable surplus of game, fish, shellfish, seaweed(!!!), berries, mushrooms, whatever) into 78 different pieces so everyone can have a sliver.  This is MOSTLY driven by WA licensed hunters' desire to have general seasons and over the counter opportunities to the greatest extent possible. 

It is not very surprising that WDFW is less highly regarded than some other western game agencies, but it is more about supply and demand than greed or competence.  Washington hunters, still hungry after consuming their 1/78th of a pie, are not as happy as Wyoming hunters who are full to the gills with pie and don't want to take any more.

I will concur, though, that it does NOT help that WDFW exists within the bloated, greedy and wasteful construct of Washington State Government, but that is a whole other discussion.

As for sitting out, you aren't understanding the discussion.  We will all apply for the best of every opportunity for ourselves.  That is why we have the current state of affairs.  As long as a permit I want to hunt is offered, whether or not I think it the best way to manage that public resource, I will apply for it. 

Those of us wishing for better management aren't inclined to voluntarily abstain and let others take what is available - we'll leave that to the morally self-righteous who stand on their convictions and principles.  Like the people we vote into office in this state