Washington Moose Permits

[Cougeyes]

Best of LUCK to you, I agree points might not do you any good, just pure luck.  My grandpa had been putting in for sheep since the first year they began permits for them and he finally drew one in 2002 i think in the Quilomene.  He had max points for quite sometime but finally i think his LUCK paid off.

[popeshawnpaul]

About 6 months ago I wrote a long email to the F&G Dept. aobut the current system and how it was better under the old system where you were required to front the money.  To my surprise I got a return email and a phone call from the guy that started the current system and ran the old system.  I can't remember his name.  It was an interesting discussion.  He had a counter to all of our arguments.  Concerning fronting the money, he stated that the department believed that was illegal and the states that do that will have to stop soon.  He also said there were too many complaints about it.  Concerning limitations on non-resident...he stated that staistics show that non-residents don't get our permits.  He said rarely will a non-resident draw.  I also thought you should have to pick your species instead of getting to apply for every species available.  I can't remember the excuse about why that wasn't acceptable.  We went on and on and didn't agree on a whole lot, but I appreciated him giving his time and hearing my frustrations.  He indicated he was a hunter and was in the same boat as me.

By the way, I found a 1995 hunting regulation booklet in my garage last week.  It was ridiculous the odds and tags we were given for goats back then.  Some of the odds were about 50% draw and there were so many more tags given back then.  I have a hard time believing that there are tons less goats now.  I wonder what spawned the management change.  Some units were really rugged and didn't have high success.  However, it did give people a chance to get out there and hunt goats.  It's a shame we have gotten to where we currently are with special species.

[bobcat]

Goat tags have been reduced because the goat populations have been dropping. The theory I heard from one biologist was that it was because of the increase in cougars. Apparently mountain goats are easy prey for cougars and one of their favorite species to target.

They can't go to only allowing people to put in for only one species because people already have points built up for all species and it wouldn't be fair to change the system now.

[shanevg]

Goat tags have been reduced because the goat populations have been dropping. The theory I heard from one biologist was that it was because of the increase in cougars. Apparently mountain goats are easy prey for cougars and one of their favorite species to target.

They can't go to only allowing people to put in for only one species because people already have points built up for all species and it wouldn't be fair to change the system now.

I'm still of the opinion that in general, a lot of the biologists just don't know how many goats there are, but a lot of the granolas want to limit the hunting, so the biologists go along.  The Avalanche Gorge and Chowder Ridge units just opened up this year for the first time in 10+ years.  My dad has had two or three tags in there and has shown me all his favorite hunting spots.  After the units were closed we would go backpacking in there and see 60-150 goats in 2 days.  And that was counting individual goats, not goat sightings.  If we saw the same herd, we didn't double count.  Anyways, we came down and told the Park Rangers about all the goats we saw and they pretty much scoffed at us and blew us off.  One Ranger even said "I've been hiking up there all my life and I've never seen more than 10 goat in a trip."  My dad talked to a couple of game biologists and they said, "The numbers have just been dwindling too much."  Reading through the lines, my dad still believes they never actually had the money to put up a survey to see how many goats there actually were so they just closed it as a "precaution."  Anyways, this past year, the biologists finally got enough money to do some research into the goat population and low and behold! there are enough goats to allow hunting.  Unluckily, that's only 1 tag per unit per year.  But that's better than nothing, and I don't claim to know how they determine the effects of hunting on the population.  Maybe 1 tag per year is all the herd can sustain, but at least we get the chance to hunt again!

It's also frustrating how the late season archery deer hunt got taken away in the same general area.  There are so many bucks that just die of old age in the winter up there now that I can't see how it would hurt to at least allow for a late season archery permit.  But what can we do?

And I completely agree with you about choosing the premiere species.  I don't want to be forced to choose, I want to be able to put in for all three.

[bowhuntin]

They can't go to only allowing people to put in for only one species because people already have points built up for all species and it wouldn't be fair to change the system now.

I don't see how that would not be fair, everybody would be affected in the same way. It would force those individuals to choose what species they really want to hunt more for the OIL tags, this would increase a guys odds. Plus they could go a step further and limit how many choices you can put down on the application and that would probably help some more. I don't think having to front the money for the tag and license would really deter many people because they could just charge it and if they aren't drawn then they will get their money back anyways. I won't be drawing a tag any time soon being that I am only going to put in for the point again this year for all the OIL tags because I don't have the time or money to do one of those hunts anyways.

[boneaddict]

THis is sort of the dilema that the WDFW is up against.  We,even as an educated group with the same interest can't even come to a conclusion.  Idaho draw odds are awesome.  WHY...no points, pick a species, and you either apply for deer/elk or once in a lifetime.  You also front the cash. Draw odds, 1:9 in some places.  Washington draw odds, 1:1000 or more.

NOW, if I had been applying for 13 years, every year, building up points, and they all of a sudden said  sorry, choose your species, and I now was at the same level as someone who had decided to hunt goats for the first time this year......thats what would be unfair Bowhuntin.

[popeshawnpaul]

I have some idea why we don't have many goat tags...but it's frustrating.  There was a popular study done 10-12 years ago that came to the conclusion that goats were not the type of species that should be managed with hunting.  There were factors that precluded them from hunting management.  I didn't agree with the study, but the following years they reduced the tags.  In addition, they didn't set the season with good data on goat populations.  A lot of times they guessed the population based on observations from previous hunters.  With no science and money to do surveys, they errored on the side of caution and cut all the tags.  I'm not sure I'm convinced that goat populations were ever declining.  I never saw any good science on that.

As for picking your species...it might be unfair now.  However, I thought that was a bad idea when it was implemented some time ago. 

[boneaddict]

There are alot of spots in the Sawtooth that used to have goats that I don't see any anymore.  My best guess was the increase in eagles and cougars.  eagles get a bunch of their kids, cougars eat the rest.

[bowhuntin]

NOW, if I had been applying for 13 years, every year, building up points, and they all of a sudden said  sorry, choose your species, and I now was at the same level as someone who had decided to hunt goats for the first time this year......thats what would be unfair Bowhuntin.

Boneaddict,
You make it sound like you would lose all your points that you built up, I am saying that if they switched over to making some one choose which species they wanted most instead of applying for all of the species you would still keep your points so you would have 13 points squared compared to the guy that is applying for the first time. Your odds would be much higher of drawing IMO, but if they switched to a new system and didn't carry over your accumulated points from years of putting in then that would be unfair.

[Ray]

I wasnt hunting goats in the 70s or 80s but it was my understanding back then that the goat population was a lot stronger across the state. That's the short story I got from a good source a number of times... I would agree that we need to monitor the species.

[SkookumHntr]

---Bowhuntin, that's what I would like to see done, choice of one once in a lifetime hunt with the points you have already accumulated. Odds would go up enough were I think you would pretty much draw sometime in your lifetime, if it stays the way it is now you probably will never draw any of them.

[boneaddict]

That I would agree with. STRONGLY.

[actionshooter]

 In reference to the goats, back in the early-mid 90s the were goat tags in the Olympics, 25 for archery if I remember right. Well the biologist determined the goats, which were non native, were destroying the habitat. They hired a paid hunter to come in and they pretty much wiped them out. That really reduced the population statewide and reduced the overall number of tags dramatically. As for populations in other areas I don't know why the amount of tags keeps going down  , but I have heard the cougar theory before.

[Ridgerunner]

Here's an email I got back from the department after sending them one complianing of how the draws went last year and about the odds on the OIL species.

Thank you for your email to the Director regarding special permit drawings.  He has asked me to respond to your issues.  I understand that you have spoken to several staff members from the Department recently about the drawing.  I also want to assure you that the Department has  been working with our contractor, Outdoor Central, to correct the problems associated with last year's special permit drawing.
 
The issue regarding the drawing odds for "permit only" species has surfaced many times in the past few years.  We developed several options including asking applicants to provide up-front license fees before applying for mountain goat, big horn sheep, and moose permits during the 2006-08 hunting season package.  None of the options were supported by a significant number of hunters.  In addition, the up-front fee idea requires substantial resources and expense to refund the license fees to those who are not drawn.
 
Changes to the permit drawing system continue to be requested by hunters and we anticipate several new options being developed for public comment.  The 2009-11 hunting season package development will be initiated this summer.  We encourage you to stay active and participate in the process by checking the web site frequently.
 
Thanks again for your thoughts on improving the permit drawing system.
 
Sincerely,
 
Dave Ware, Game Division Manager

Whats funny is I haven't spoken to anyone over there about these issues, perhaps they are thinking of someone else.   

[boneaddict]

Thats alright, Idabooner drew a multiseason permit and didn't even put in for one.  Maybe they were responding to one of the letters from the guy who really put in for the permit.  Nice comments though and good points about hunters shooting themselves in the foot.  LOTS of uniformed folks out there.