Full frontal

[jrebel]

No not what your thinking....lets keep it clean. 

Would you take a frontal shot on a deer at 30 Yards if that is all you had? 

[HardCorpsHuntr]

The question is would you

[FC]

Right between the running lights.

[300rum]

Yes.   

[blacktailbutcher]

Yes. And I have. Very effective kill shot.

[jrebel]

hardcorpshunter

The answer yesterday was yes....Now I am not sure I would do it again.  I shot a doe yesterday at 30 yards....the arrow hit bottom third dead center.  It exited out her back side without even slowing down and stuck in a tree twenty yards behind her.  No blood for the first 10 yards and then a decent blood trail for 40 yards or so.....Blood stopped and I could not find her.  I looked for roughly four hours and did a grid search for approx 200 yards in all directions. 

Maybe the contributing factor is my broadhead selection.  I shoot 125 grain sonics because the shoot exactly like my fieldpoints.  However this is the second consecutive animal that has given me almost no blood trail.  The elk we recovered with a grid search...Thank God.   The deer I was not so lucky with.  This makes me sick to my stomach.  I am so dissapointed that I am done for the early season.

[Hunter Dug]

With a bow no way,  With a rifle or muzzle loader in a heartbeat.  Best to have a entrance and exit wound with an arrow.  With a gun this will typically drop the animal, with a shot to the upper half of the animal.

[boneaddict]

In the past I would have.  After hearing many of the stories and accounts on here from folks I probably wouldn't.  I have killed two bucks with the shot in the throat from much closer distance.(I am tlaking bow...rifle, no problem)

I'm really surprised you got a pass thru that direction and had momentum enough to stick a tree.

[jrebel]

Me too, I was looking for my arrow on the ground and when I looked up it was stuck in a tree.  I thought it would pass though, just not fast enough to stick in a tree.  I have not had one arrow stay in a deer or elk in the last 5 years....all pass throughs.  I would rather them stay in and cut while they are moving...like the old days.

[boneaddict]

I'll have to research that broadhead.  I don't know anything about them. 

[npaull]

Hey jrebel,

I would imagine almost without a doubt that what happened is your arrow tunneled underneath the ribcage and actually ended up staying subcutaneous but not inside a body cavity the whole way through. You probably skived unerneath the chest and didn't go through the abdomen at all. This wound would bleed a lot initially but then stop.

As a surgeon, I can tell you without a doubt it is simply not possible that your arrow went through the chest, diaphragm, then into the abdomen, through the abdomen and out the other end and the deer did not die within a few tens of yards.

The good news is that there is a decent chance the deer will survive this injury.

To answer the initial question, less than 30 yards no way, but less than 10 or so probably, if it felt good (I hunt with a longbow). I think this shot at 20+ yards is not a good idea. It takes SO little movement on the part of the deer to turn a potentially good shot into a terrible one.

But again jrebel, this may not have been a fatal injury. Sorry it happened, it's always tough.

[jrebel]

My arrow reaks of GI and is covered in blood.  It would have been impossible for the arrow to travel through the abd without going through the chest as it was level with me, not to mention I saw the arrow hit.  I'm telling you that the arrow was a clean through and through....That is why I am discusted with the fact that I did not find this deer.  I won't take a frontal shot again, and I think I need to change broadheads to get more cutting surface. 

[npaull]

It couldn't go through the abdomen without going through the chest, but it could go BETWEEN the ribcage and the skin without going into either the chest or the abdomen. This sort of trajectory would make it look like the arrow went "through and through" but in fact it would not have gone through a body cavity, just underneath skin for a ways. This is what I think happened. It's actually not unheard of with frontal shots unfortunately, because the sternum rises up a few inches vertically from that angle. The arrow hits the sternum or one of the first few ribs and is deflected inferiorly and ends up running between the ribs and the skin. If the arrow's actually covered in stool then of course this theory is wrong, but if it just smells it could still easily have happened the way I've described.

It is virtually impossible to think of any way it could actually have traveled through chest and abdomen without the deer dropping like a stone. At that angle, the window into the chest is only about 5" circle. If you're in that circle you go right over the heart, cutting both the aorta and pulmonary artery. Then you go back through the lungs. Then there's almost no way you can miss the liver, and you cut a ton of mesenteric blood vessels all the way back as you go out. It would have dropped in site almost for sure. It's the most devastating injury you can have short of a beheading.

Anyway, we'll never know for sure, but I'm just telling you this to try and make you feel better. If it happened the way you described, the deer died very very fast. If it happened the way I described, it may not die at all.

Anyway, sorry again. It's crappy when it doesn't work out.

[Grizzly95]

About 8 years ago I took that same shot at 20 yards, almost passed through. There was about 10 inches of arrow sticking out the back side. Watched her go about 50 yards and lay down. We backed out and came back after a little while only to find a gutpile   someone took my deer! I have done the texas heart shot effectively also. I was shooting Muzzy's.

[jstone]

In 06 my buddy and i had the entiat archery tag. he shot a 3x3 at about 7 yards walking right at him shot it directly in the heart. the deer turned and walked almost all the way to the top of the hill, amazing will to survive. you could see the arrow sticking out and the blood just pumping out. Animals are very tough.

[archery288]

NO WAY!!!    I shot a big 3x5 blacktail at 16 yards facing me head on 5 years ago...  I had just shot my first bear ever that morning and we had just got back to the truck and headed down the mountainside at 2 in the afternoon..  Everything seemed great and things were about to get better! It had been pouring down rain all morning and had finally stopped.. But the bushes were soaked with water.. First problem..  We were driving and happened to glance over to our left and here stood this monster blacktail!!    We kept driving and stopped down the road a bit.. I got out and snuck back up the road and to my disbelief that buck was still standing there feeding on the bushes..  We never would have guessed he would have stayed.. I ranged him with my range finder and 16 yards - slam dunk! Pulled back and wouldn't you know it - he turns to face me head on from being broadside.. His posture changed from calm to alert as he was about to run.. Second mistake..  I anchored in and placed the pin in the center of his chest and released.. Didn't get any better - clean pass through and stuck in the dirt on the backside...  That buck took off blood spraying everywhere... He ran around the top end of a canyon hillside and bedded down. We didn't know he had bedded at the time.. We gave him about 30 min and in the middle of tracking him we all looked at each other and couldn't believe how much blood was all over the bushes and tree limbs etc..  However, the blood was getting mixed in with all the water and disappearing quickly...    We came upon his bed, blood in the bed, and figured he would be dead shortly.. Honestly we couldn't believe he got out of his bed... We waited about another half hour and then kept tracking..  We came upon another bed with hardly any blood in it at all and blood was starting to get scarce...  It started pouring down rain by this point, and we kept tracking him before the blood was washed away... Finally the blood disappeard after almost a mile track job.. I swore after that incident I would never take another head on shot on an animal with a bow! I was so sick with myself after that as he was a big blacktail buck!!  My dad and hunting partner "littlejohn" can contest to this that day...

I have heard to many stories from guys coming in the archery shop that have taken head on shots... Not something I would recommend with a bow...

[NWBREW]

Rifle...yes, and I have right in the neck. Bow...I don't believe so. That's just me

[ML_Hunter]

A head shot with a bow is not too bright.  The arrow can deflect off the skull or you can make a square hit and not get your arrow back.  The one shot I've seen that took the deer down with a head shot with a bow cracked the arrow shaft in several areas, I'm surprised it did not shatter.  If your confident with your shot a neck shot would be the way to go and sever the spinal cord.  I would not aim at the chest of the deer for what happen to you could happen again.  My cousin hunts archery out east and I've hunted with him a few times, he will not hesitate with that shot and has taken two that I know of this way.  Myself, well i'm not too comfortable with a bow so I would not. 

[Snapshot]

No.

[JBar]

Well I just experiencing this for the second time in 22 years yesterday and I can tell you it worked both times. But as with anything stuff could go wrong and not every shot will work the same every time. First time maybe 5 years ago I got a clean pass through with the deer only going 20 yards and piling up heavy blood the whole way, the arrow pretty much cleaned house. My deer yesterday traveled almost 100 yards leaving a heavy blood trail. In the second case the deer was uphill 25 yards away, the arrow buried to the fletch. After gutting I did a quick look and to my surprise the lungs and heart were still intact. The shot wasn't low enough in the chest and with the upward angle it missed the vital organs only cutting arteries  that I could tell. So with that said I am currently pondering what I would do next time 

[PA BEN]

Yes

[RippinLips]

Yes. And I have. Very effective kill shot.

\ as long as your between the blades its straight into the vitals.

[carpsniperg2]

there is a sweet spot right to the side of the neck on both sides. not very big but a well placed arrow with a hard hitting bow. will take down any animal around here. but it is a risky shot if you do not shoot a whole bunch, and very capable of hitting a small target. i would not take that shot. i have taken 2 animals with this shot. one elk and a bear. the elk with a bow and the bear with a rifle.

[MAVsled]

I did once and ever after pass on the full frontal shot...

Off Tiger Mtn, mid 1980's. Late hunt, either sex and my equipment was a Jennings T-Star compound bow. Nothing like the bows of today and the sight pins were metal-fingernail polished on the tips, shooting with 3 finger archery glove
.
A little November snow on the ground as I moved my way through the timber. A 2 point peeks around a douglas fir at me about 20 yard away, I freeze and gaze downward but keeping the blacktail buck in sight. He comes around the tree and I draw. the buck turns and immediately faces me offering nothing but full frontal, no angle. Buck walks towards me edging closer. The pin goes on his chest and I release, watching the arrow hit squarely in the front chest. The buck whirls and away he goes. Wait 45 minutes (felt much longer!) and I start the trailing. good blood after a few yards and then more. But I had snow which helped as the blood went to a trickle. then jumped the buck and he started to sneak around me. I sent another arrow into the sweet pocket/armpit broadside and off the buck went again. He collapsed into a snowy old logging road and wouldn't you know it, 5 hikers came up that road about the time I reached it and the buck. let me tell you, they gave me several dirty looks and some comments but off they went.

upon inspection, the first arrow hit center and after little penetration the wound channel moved off to the side, under the skin but only in that thin meat layer. It exited just past the front leg, low & outside of the rib cage. If it wasn't for the 2nd shot, that buck would have moved on and probably healed up.

[Machias]

Nope, wouldn't do it, for every sucess I would venture to say there are dozens of wounded deer.  There is such a small area, a slight miss or slightest movement and your looking at a wounded deer.  Personally, NOPE!

[bow4elk]

Um, this is a low-percentage shot and should be avoided!

Shooting big game head on is proven to be a "Hail Mary" shot at best and while everyone has their own definition of personal ethics, I'm surprised that so many would not simply wait for the animal to turn.  And if the response is, "Well, if they are head on looking at me, they might not turn slowly enough for me to get a shot".  To that, I say oh well.  People shouldn't be shooting at alert game head on for this very reason - deer can drop and turn to run causing the arrow to hit the shoulder blade or who-knows-where.

Don't be greedy.  Respect the game we pursue.  Avoid frontal shot angles.  Bow hunting can be frustrating and passing up low-percentage shots is part of the responsibility you have when carrying a bow afield.  Save the head, neck, and frontal shot angles for bullets.  Broadheads are designed to kill by causing hemorrhaging (massive blood loss).  The optimal way to kill any game animal with an arrow is to pierce the heart/lung vital organs.

Passing low-percentage shots is more admirable than "sticking one"  

[huntnnw]

yep

[Ironhead]

Well said Bow4Elk.

[danceswitharrows]

Bow4elk I could not have said it any better 

[bow4elk]

I'm an IBEP/NBEF and state certified (WA & OR) hunter/bowhunter education instructor.  I have always felt that ethics has more to do with non-hunting support than safety.  Not to undermine the importance of safety but nothing angers people more than sloppy hunters with poor eithics and respect for game. Again, my    Take it or leave it.

[Stomper]

I've taken the full frontal shot on an island deer.Put my arrow through the white patch on the neck.One shot,one kill,dead in it's tracks.12 yard shot though...I also shoot year round with the bow.My poundage is also up there at 78 lbs. Muzzy 125 grain 3 blade broadhead.My dad has not shot a deer in the last 15 years in the body.All in the head or neck with his 30-06.So that's 15 deer in the head or neck. I would'nt take a neck shot over 15 yards though with my bow...

[blackveltbowhunter]

Guess i gotta throw in my  . I have been presented with this shot to many times to count, on both deer and elk. I have taken the shot 3 times. All the shots were taken at elk, all were less than 20 yards and 2 were kills. The other was a clean miss, and woulda been,regardless. A range estimation error on my part and I just plain shot under him. All three were call in solo and coming directly at me, not alert, oblivious to my presence. Both the bulls killed were at 7 and 5 yards respectivley, my arrow hit dead center of the sweet spot and pierced heart/lung/liver on both and exited through the ham on one, and the nuts on the other. One made it 35 or so yards the other 3, the most dramatic bow kill i have ever seen he litterly spewed blood from the hole like a faucet for 15 seconds before falling over. IMO these shots were not low percentage shots or hail marys with a good outcome, they were high percentage shot for ME to take, given my equipments ability and my own shooting ability I knew those elk were dead before I ever let the arrow go. Not all frontal shots are high percentage, not all quartering away shots are high percentage, even perfectly broadside shots can be low percentage, given brush, terrain, animal alertness and most importantly the hunters shooting ability in the moment of truth. I have turned down many opportunities at frontal shots, far more than any other angle, but when given a high percentage opportunity and a shot I know I can make, I will make no apologies for it.

[firedog]

Um, this is a low-percentage shot and should be avoided!

Shooting big game head on is proven to be a "Hail Mary" shot at best and while everyone has their own definition of personal ethics, I'm surprised that so many would not simply wait for the animal to turn.  And if the response is, "Well, if they are head on looking at me, they might not turn slowly enough for me to get a shot".  To that, I say oh well.  People shouldn't be shooting at alert game head on for this very reason - deer can drop and turn to run causing the arrow to hit the shoulder blade or who-knows-where.

Don't be greedy.  Respect the game we pursue.  Avoid frontal shot angles.  Bow hunting can be frustrating and passing up low-percentage shots is part of the responsibility you have when carrying a bow afield.  Save the head, neck, and frontal shot angles for bullets.  Broadheads are designed to kill by causing hemorrhaging (massive blood loss).  The optimal way to kill any game animal with an arrow is to pierce the heart/lung vital organs.

Passing low-percentage shots is more admirable than "sticking one"  

Couldn't have said it better

[Quarteredaway]

if u are not willing to wait for the perfect shot (quartered away) with archery then you need to consider going to muzzle or modern.IMO

[jeepasaurusrex]

I shot my first buck this way. White tail looking right at me. I put the crosshairs just below his chin and fired. I think his hooves were in the same tracks when I got to him. He never even flinched. My brother shot a blacktail right between the eyes with a 30-06. I think between the instinct to run and the impact of the bullet, the buck flipped right over backwards. Funniest darn thing I ever saw.

[Wile E. Hunter]

Um, this is a low-percentage shot and should be avoided!

Shooting big game head on is proven to be a "Hail Mary" shot at best and while everyone has their own definition of personal ethics, I'm surprised that so many would not simply wait for the animal to turn.  And if the response is, "Well, if they are head on looking at me, they might not turn slowly enough for me to get a shot".  To that, I say oh well.  People shouldn't be shooting at alert game head on for this very reason - deer can drop and turn to run causing the arrow to hit the shoulder blade or who-knows-where.

Don't be greedy.  Respect the game we pursue.  Avoid frontal shot angles.  Bow hunting can be frustrating and passing up low-percentage shots is part of the responsibility you have when carrying a bow afield.  Save the head, neck, and frontal shot angles for bullets.  Broadheads are designed to kill by causing hemorrhaging (massive blood loss).  The optimal way to kill any game animal with an arrow is to pierce the heart/lung vital organs.

Passing low-percentage shots is more admirable than "sticking one"  

I had a GIANT cow elk head on at 30yds about 7 years ago. I was hunting with a 90# PSE SR-1000 at the time with a Satellite Titan TNT 125 broadhead on a 2514 XX78. (lots of draw weight+heavy arrow with cutting tip 4 blade=deep penetration) I was shooting a LOT at the time, and knew I could hit her anywhere I wanted, but I passed on the shot for fear of burying the arrow in her and not having a blood trail (it was very dry, early season). I was very sure I could've killed her, but not so sure I could find her. Still haunts me, but I still feel I made the right decision.

Wile E.

[krout81]

Killed several Blacktail with neck shot. (All within 20 yards always in the snow) Only Shot 1 calf elk with a frontal(in the snow), all other 7 Elk always broadside or quartering away.  Elk are to big to mess with low percentage.   My Father has killed a few with frontal just the fletches sticking out, But he has been hunting for 40 plus years so he is bound to have a few like that.

[coachcw]

my :  It depends on one skill set . With the kn I shoot I'll take a frontal wtih a little angle , you can blow right throw and hit atleast one lung , If your gonna take a neck shot you better hit the base of the head at the neck for a quick kill. slightly quarting towards you shoot on a elk you can still hit booth lungs if you hold tight right behind the shoulder , quarter away hit the last rib , I've made these shots with good outcome and had a really broad side shot go bad when I missed the yardage and shot right over the lungs .This is aways a touchy subject because there's so many varibles as far as skill and epuiptment . I see the penitration thr whitetail guys on tv get and just shake my head . If I shoot game in the rain I give them 5-10 min then get on the trail when the blood gets washed its a bitch .