Why out of state?!

[Dave Workman]

I think Baldo really hit the nail on the head with regards to state wildlife agencies trying to please both ends of the spectrum...from animal rights wackos to us hunters.  

When they took the word "GAME" out and replaced it with Dept of Fish & WILDLIFE that's when we lost WA.  Now game and those who care about it (HUNTERS) are just one of the many "user groups" they serve.  I liked Dave Workman's idea:  abolish WDFW, put wildlife management in DNR and DOE's hands and bring back the GAME DEPT!  This guy should run for Governor!

The GAME DEPT would be charged with GAME MANAGEMENT and nothing else...no frogs, no dicky birds, no wolf 'recovery' studies, no Seafair patrols, no marijuana task forces, etc!  I bet we could pay for a GAME Dept with licensing revenue if game was all they were in charge of.  The Game Dept Director's salary and bonus plan should be tied directly to the overall statewide deer hunter success rate.

Hunters would be allowed and encouraged to purchase hunt multiple weapon season tags and the limits would remain one deer/ one elk / year.  "Choose your weapon" only served to fracture and divide the state's hunting community and greatly reduced the overall amount hunters contributed to the rural economies by hunting multiple seasons.

I don't buy the "quality" hunt BS.  Back in the 80's and earlier there were twice as many hunters... we were spread out and and had modern firearm elk seasons that lasted two weeks and were in mid November...any bull on the Eastside. That was quality hunting.

Now we have 3pt buck and spike bull blanket regs....and now lots of meat standing on the hoof at the feeding stations, AKA "Watchable Wildlife Viewing Opportunities".  (Look at all these big bulls and bucks; see what a good job we're doing )I'm betting this year's winter kill will be horrendous.  Literally tons of meat (the 3pt bucks and 6pt bulls) are going to feed the yotes, wolves, and magpies this winter.  That meat should have gone to feeding people.  

Well, if I were to run for governor, as I said in that message a couple of weeks back, one of the very first things I would do is call for a performance audit of the WDFW.

I grew up in Washington and I have watched the decline in hunting opportunity ever since, and maybe even before, the agency changed from being the Department of GAME to the Department of (No) Fish and (Watchable) WILDLIFE.

The last legal mule deer I shot in Washington was in the early 1990s, the last year prior to the imposition of the 3-point rule.

The biggest bucks I have shot have all been taken OUT OF STATE. And that tells me something.

I shot a nice 2x3 down in southern Utah. Couple of years later, I anchored a really nice 4-pt buck in SE Wyoming, and a few years ago I clobbered a bigger 4-pointer southeast of Terry, MT (moving shot, 250 yards) that I wrote about in GUN WORLD magazine.

Anybody who knows me knows that when I hunt, I hunt hard and at my age, that's a bitch sometimes. But when one can go days without seeing a single animal or a fresh track, in areas that are supposed to be fairly populated with deer, there's something haywire.

Many years ago, when I first started at Fishing & Hunting News, the executive editor reminded me that "If you want to insure the survival of a species, put a hunting season on it. Hunters will make damn sure there are plenty of animals to hunt."

Instead, we have an agency apparently more interested in wolves and watchable wildlife than in putting elk and deer in the cooler where they belong. What good are a dozen, 15 or 20 or a hundred dead deer or elk in late January or early February? If we have a hard winter, and it's beginning to shape up that way with the snow we've already seen, maybe "Glockster" is right. We could have a big winter kill.

A lot of game animals will not survive, and that's a sign that somebody's management scheme is FUBAR.

I remember hunting elk for two weeks and three full weekends. I remember a couple of those seasons when the end of buck season overlapped with the opening day of bull elk, and that was a grand experience. But someone in the department convinced the commission that this was an opportunity for "party hunters" to kill an animal because "somebody had a tag."

That may have happened, no doubt, but it was hardly rampant enough to muck up the hunting opportunity for the vast majority of people who were out there hunting on the straight.

I live out in North Bend and every day almost there are traffic jams between North Bend and Snoqualmie caused by morons stopping on the highway to watch the big elk herd on the Meadowbrook farm. There are a couple of hundred elk in there, and they're a  &$#damn nuisance, not just a danger to traffic but they move over onto the nearby golf course and raise hell. Yes, they are nice to look at but where they are now makes driving simply dangerous.

I attended a meeting of a bunch of concerned citizens and afterward told the WDFW agent..a guy I'd known for some years...that the best solution to this would be to put some bowhunters in there to clobber a few of those elk, and the rest of them would head back north onto the old Weyerhaeuser tree farm where more hunters could take advantage of them. He did not disagree.

As for the mule deer antler restriction, I was hunting in Okanogan this year and down on the Snake, and along the east slope around Teanaway. We saw nothing but a lot of 2-point bucks.

I pose this question: If the regs are set up to allow the harvest of the older mature bucks, that leaves a lot of fork horns to do the breeding. What does that do to the herd gene pool after a few cycles? Give that some thought.

"CountryslickR" essentially accused Glockster of being a crybaby with his little cartoons. Pretty cheap shot. I happen to know that guy and he's a devoted hunter who also grew up around here and he's seen this happen same as me.

There is no sound reason, NONE, for "Resource allocation" management where people are prohibited from extending their opportunity by obtaining an extra stamp or validation that allows them to hunt the general season and, if they don't notch a tag, grab a muzzleloader or bow and keep at it. If they can only take one elk and one deer annually, where's the harm in letting them try and taking in the revenue?

Would that not be preferable to the kind of grotesque circus we saw last year up along Highway 20 IIRC with the archers shooting elk in some guy's roadside pasture in front of a lot of really angry motorists? Everyone recall the video on television?  I opposed Resource Allocation for years. I would have to check the figures, but last time I did, it appeared that there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-100,000 FEWER hunters in the field than during the 60s and 70s, and yet the seasons are shorter and opportunities are more limited. Why is that?

There's been a dispute over the timing of the elk seasons on the eastside, how they were moved earlier. This may be just swell with horse packers and guides who take clients into the Jackson wilderness, but it doesn't provide much opportunity for guys down on the Little Naches or Crow Creek or the Manastash and Taneum because the weather doesn't set in to move the elk until after the season closes. Are we all supporting a bunch of packers?


If I were governor, I would dearly love to hire a GAME director like the guy who brought in our wild turkey program 20 years ago. That has been the only truly remarkable success story designed specifically to provide a new and productive hunting opportunity.  But Olympia doesn't want guys like that around. They seem more interested in inviting wolves and sitting on the sidelines while the fur huggers outlaw hound hunting.

If I were governor, I'd FIND the money somewhere, or go after grants, to re-establish the EW pheasant release program, to put the hatcheries back in full production, to enhance elk and deer and waterfowl habitat, and to take Washington back to the time when it didn't cost a guy a fortune to buy licenses and tags for himself and his kids, and when they had a genuine opportunity to put fish in the creel and game in the cooler.

Yeah,   if I were governor, I'd turn back the clock, and if some people didn't care for the change, they'd get road maps to California.


But I'm not the governor and probably won't become governor only because I can't find enough dead people to vote for me in King County.
     

[WDFW-SUX]

 

[400out]

Very well put Dave 

[DBHAWTHORNE]

The goal of antler restrictions is to protect 1 1/2 year old bucks. However, antler restrictions based on points are less effective than other types of antler restrictions such as spread restrictions. Unfortuanately the problem with spread restrictions is that people have a difficult time judging spread. I see supposed 20 inch bucks all the time that are really only 16-18 inches. A restriction like that can only take place on a small scale and shouldn't be instituted by the state lest we have a lot of game violations.

I will say with whitetail I see the opposite of what you see with mule deer. I see a much higher percentage of mature bucks in units with the 3pt rule. That being said I do believe any type of point rule antler restrictions has flaws. The one Dave mentioned about the 2 pt.'s being the biggest one.

[steeleywhopper]

I hunt out of state because there is nothing finer than eating a Montana elk tag compared to eating a Washington elk tag. Those tags that cost more are better eating in my opinion. Oh yea, it's all about the adventure and seeing people who I don't get to see all the time. Basicly having fun, which is what we should all be doing not matter what state you hunt!

[Glockster]

The goal may be to protect the spikes and forks, but the reality is that we're focusing ALL of the hunting pressure on the big ones.  I too witnessed many big 2pt muledeer this year...we're selecting out the 3 points.  

The other effect has been a dramatic lowering of the over all "success" or kill % per hunter which hasn't helped this state retain or recruit new deer hunters.  Hence, this mass exodus of Washingtonians hunting out of state.  And they've taken millions of their dollars with them...money that used to be spent in places like Naches.  

The real unfortunate reality of antler restrictions has been the inexucable practice of "ground checking"...guys who shoot when they see horn...and then run when they see it on the ground with not enough points.  ~Remember all of the guys who came on here to defend the bear hunter who shot the brushpicker? "Anything can happen in the heat of the moment" was a very common (and unexcusable) defense. There are alot of guys with that mentality out there.

On the elk side of things, I have seen raghorn bulls left to rot in the Bethel unit.  I heard of at least 9 wasted bulls that were not "true Spikes" in the Collockum this year.  These bulls are in the same 2-3yr age class as the "true spikes" the managers have decided to focus all the pressure on.

These wasteful situations are examples of  what is desired by the managers vs what is happening due to their mis-management.

[muleyguy]

the primary problem in WA is it has the highest hunter numbers relative to the smallest land base of any of the Western state's;  antler pt restrictions can be useful IF used in the right situation;  but, most of the time are being used by our Wildlife department to try and solve a much bigger problem, and they are not capable of solving the bigger issue; 

rules like 3 pt or better provide a short term public relations boost for the wildlife department because all they do is shift the harvest from 1.5 yr old deer to 2.5 yr old deer;  and now, the avg hunter in this state is shooting a basket racked 19" 3 pt instead of a spike or little 2 pt;  and, for many hunters this is the biggest deer they have ever harvested (swiftkid) so they are "happy" and think things are great....... 

BUT, antler pt restrictions will not solve the bigger problem of too many hunters relative to the amount of land base  in the state;  blacktails and whitetails are the exception, as their habitat choices, behavior patterns, and high tolerance of living near humans results in good numbers of animals with decent buck to doe ratio's and decent buck population dynamics (nice mix of all age classes).

so, the discussion is not really about them, it is about mule deer;  the "answer" is not to go back to longer seasons and do away with all the restrictions;

the answer, is more restrictions on hunter tag numbers and very tight and targeted antlerless opporutnities, if any at all;  if you reduced the hunter numbers by 33% and got rid of all the antlerless opportunities (except maybe in some ag areas), you could increase the season length, get rid of the stupid 3 pt minimum rule, provide more trophy opportunities, reduce the number of hunters in the field, and basically, provide a "quality experience" in the field;

the price to this would be simply that 1 out of 3 yrs you wouldn't get to hunt;  right now, the dept has these very strict season length restrictions and provide a precious few "trophy tags";  but, realistically, you are only going to get drawn 1 or 2 in your lifetime;  if the dept went the other way as described above, you would miss one season out three, but, 66% of time, you are going to have a quality hunt.

the only thing that will solve WA state's issue's is to go to a limited draw system for all deer that restricts the number of hunters in the field every year;  BUT nobody is willing to give up their yearly trip, so we are going to slowly, but surely, destroy the hunting in this state because none of us want to give one inch.

are there decent opportunities in this state still???  sure, but, how many of us have the time (or want to stay married......) to spend 60 days a year in the field scouting for that perfect spot each year???  Every year it gets worse and worse;  more people in the areas that you thought you had to yourself; 

going back to 3 week seasons that extend into early november and overlap with elk hunting etc, is a relic of the past........in our lifetimes, WA will either take the drastic step like OR and NV has done and go to draw only mule deer seasons;  or by the time our kids grow up, quality, public land hunting opportunities in this state will be non-existent.

[sisu]

Very well put Dave 

DAVE WORKMAN FOR GOVERNOR

[boneaddict]

 

[muleyguy]

are you photographing all those bucks in Montana and trying to pull a fast one on us?

so your justification that "things are all right" is because you can go up on the winter range, during the rut, which concentrates deer into a several square mile area from literally hundreds of square miles, and take a bunch of photograph's??  I went to the miss america contest last year, and came away thinking I should have no trouble finding a beautiful, smart women to marry.......hell, there all over the place......

ever been up to the elk feeding station in yakima???  every bull from 100 miles in that place,  that doesn't mean that things are ok

now, don't take this the wrong way bone, I am in no way dismissing what you are able to achieve in your photography;  and, from watching you on here, you are able to take some great pics even out of the rut, and migratory areas.

But, at what cost???  How many hrs and days have you spent afield in the last 15 yrs to be able to achieve this??  I have no doubt boneaddict could find a 160 to 170 class buck to harvest in this state every year.

but, that doesn't mean things are "ok";  

[boneaddict]

Well your first mistake is to assume you know where I am photographing.  I'm not on the winter range for the most part....why because of all the permit dudes road hunting. LOL

Yes, the rut does help.  Dramatically.   There are fools on here that think the general season should be during the rut.   Thats about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.   

Yes the deer herd is in trouble in this state.  Mostly becasue of predator control.  Wolves, cougar, bears etc.  They are doing better with controlling bear.  Talk to all those living in downtown King County.  They seem to know everything.   Kind of hard to blame the WDFW when the people can't pull their heads out of their asses enough to vote sensibly.  Who do I blame...mostly the idiot Eastside folks that didn't vote.  You know who you are.

Take away the three point rule, and you are going to destroy whats left of the deer population.  PERIOD!

You want to fix things.  CONTROL predators....fix the Indian problem.   You want to change something for a better chance of killing nice deer in this state.  GET RID OF THE PERMIT DRAWS.    Yes its the golden ticket.  Yes some of you will get to do it once or maybe twice if you are absolutely frickin lucky. BUT.....do away with it and those prime vulnerable bucks will be around during the general season.   
 

[muleyguy]

yeah, you keep telling yourself everything is ok.........and when your kids grow up and are not able to even have the experiences that you have now, you will wonder what happened.....

if you were a true steward of the sport, you would realize something is drastically wrong in this state with the mule deer herd.  You can kid yourself all you want to try and win internet arguments ........

I remember you a month ago shooting a great buck for WA and I commend you for that, looks like you put in some hard work, and have some good areas;

and, like I said in the earlier post, you and bone should not take any of this as an attack, rather, it is impressive that you can put yourself in a position in this state to harvest a buck like that.

but, once again, that does not mean everything is ok.........

[DoubleJ]

No way am I reading all of this.  Just a thought from somebody who has no idea what he's talking about, what if we shut it down for, say 4-5 years?  Shut it down completely and let some of the numbers come back?  Would this work?

[boneaddict]

It wouldn't Double J.   That means the natives would just harvest more.   Case in point, The Clockum, The umptanum, The Firing Center. 

Wshington has a problem, so does Montana and so does Idaho. 

[muleyguy]

You want to fix things.  CONTROL predators....fix the Indian problem.

I agree;  BUT we can't do anything about that.....and, other states might not have the indian problem we do, but they arguably have at least as bad or worse predator problems (more wolves then us), but, their deer herds are still in better shape then ours; 

Take away the three point rule, and you are going to destroy whats left of the deer population.  PERIOD!

not if you cut the yearly buck harvest by 1/3;

BUT.....do away with it and those prime vulnerable bucks will be around during the general season.

I don't disagree with that;  but, once again, if you reduced the buck harvest by 1/3 you could probably still offer those permits and be ok;  but, I don't totally disagree with you because this state, given all of its other problems, just might not be able to sustain that

but, the biggest problem in this state is just plain old over-harvest of bucks in the general season;  if you get the general season harvest down my guess is the rest will take care of itself