White river special permit holders of the past

[trophyhunt]

there has always been inequalities in our nation and I am sure there will continue to be inequalities in the future. 

Because you guys take advantage of the system, your tribes will never stop taking from the hand that feeds you when you haven't needed it for many, many years. Most of the indian hunting is taking place not because someone had a baby or got married or died. It's taking place to get under our skin, you feel it's your right to go hunt and kill anytime you want to! 150+ years ago my fore fathers used to go out and hunt for food and I'm sure just to hunt- Does that make it right for me to go kill at anytime now? No it doesn't because of besides the laws, I have the smarts enough to realize the animals can't survive if everyone thought the way the indians do! Really, what if we hunted the way you guys do? Do you think there would be any game left? Just because the past government many years ago gave you the right doesn't mean that you can't stop suckling from our nipples and raping the land of the animals that we care about 1000 times more than the tribes. Now I'm just getting more pissed so I will go for now.

[Practical Approach]

there has always been inequalities in our nation and I am sure there will continue to be inequalities in the future. 

Because you guys take advantage of the system, your tribes will never stop taking from the hand that feeds you when you haven't needed it for many, many years. Most of the Indian hunting is taking place not because someone had a baby or got married or died. It's taking place to get under our skin, you feel it's your right to go hunt and kill anytime you want to! 150+ years ago my fore fathers used to go out and hunt for food and I'm sure just to hunt- Does that make it right for me to go kill at anytime now? No it doesn't because of besides the laws, I have the smarts enough to realize the animals can't survive if everyone thought the way the Indians do! Really, what if we hunted the way you guys do? Do you think there would be any game left? Just because the past government many years ago gave you the right doesn't mean that you can't stop suckling from our nipples and raping the land of the animals that we care about 1000 times more than the tribes. Now I'm just getting more pissed so I will go for now.

First of all I would like to clarify that I am not a native American.  My comments are my own based on working with multiple agencies including tribal wildlife agencies.

Tribes are simply operating based off the system that was established by our government.  True, the majority of animals harvested are probably not for ceremonies, I don't have the statistics on that, buy I am pretty sure the majority of tribal hunters are not out hunting to get under state hunter skin.  Here we go again,  almost every tribe has hunting regulations that the hunters have to abide by.  No they aren't the same as state seasons, but they can't hunt any time they want unless it is for a ceremony and only by select designated hunters by the tribe.  Yes our forefathers hunted when they needed food, buy we are now restricted by our government.  Our governing agencies set our seasons based on populations and the sheer number of hunters in Washington.  Tribes are a small piece of the hunting population.  Since there aren't that many hunters the majority of the time when they harvest animals is irrelevant.  It does not have the impact that it would if it were the thousands of state hunters.  I am not in any way condoning illegal hunting or hunting closed wintering areas.

If state hunters really cared about the welfare of the game, there would be more people who were advocates of going to a permit only hunting process.  There would be less animals harvested, fewer people chasing animals in the woods as well stressing them out.  How about cutting back on seasons.  Hell you can begin hunting in September and practically hunt till January.  Practically, half of the year there is some user group chasing animals in the woods.  Any one of those user groups harvest more animals than the tribes.  I am sure you will disagree, but you have the regs and the harvest numbers are online.

What frustrates me about your comments and comments like yours is that, while you are frustrated with the system that has been set up years ago, you have failed to look at any of the positive things that are contributed by the tribes.  You would rather grab hold of every incident that you or your buddies have either witnessed or heard about and fixate on them.  Folks have no problem researching treaties and whats wrong with them, and every other way a tribe has wronged them, but they don't take the time to educate themselves on the role that every one of the tribal wildlife departments plays in managing the game that most of you are hunting. 

Sure, you can say that its no big deal that it is your tax money at work, whether it is or isn't at least it is at work to help out the wildlife populations that everyone hunts.  If tribes truly didn't care about the game populations then why would they waste the money on managing them.  They don't have to.  Is this their way of getting under your skin? 

Again, I understand most everyones frustration.  However, constructive conversation would be a nice change of pace rather than just venting.

 

[Coastal_native]

Practical,

This ones rough...I'd get out while you can.  I think some of these guys had their minds made up before they even knew what an Indian was...   I haven't seen anything that I would consider a constructive conversation yet, and being that you're already a couple pages into it, I would guess it's not going to happen.  I see a trend...if you post a diplomatic response and refuse to participate in the "name calling" it just makes everyone more angry.  I know it's fun to engage people in conversation, but you are getting out right slammed...I gotta hand it to ya...you got patience.

By the way, have we worked together before?...I was at the Mt St Hellens relocation in 2005.  If you've spent as much time working with tribes as you say, I can't help but think we've worked together before.  If you've worked with my tribe and have followed my posts you've got to have an idea who I am. 

Doesn't it seem to you like state/tribal wildlife coops are popping up all over the place now.  I can't help but think WDFW sees a potential advantage in working with tribes that have the funding to do this type of work, especially when state budgets are tight...could be a good thing.  We've been assisting WDFW with comp counts in a GMU they don't even think we have the right to hunt in...this whole state/tribal thing baffles me. 

[Practical Approach]

Practical,

This ones rough...I'd get out while you can.  I think some of these guys had their minds made up before they even knew what an Indian was...   I haven't seen anything that I would consider a constructive conversation yet, and being that you're already a couple pages into it, I would guess it's not going to happen.  I see a trend...if you post a diplomatic response and refuse to participate in the "name calling" it just makes everyone more angry.  I know it's fun to engage people in conversation, but you are getting out right slammed...I gotta hand it to ya...you got patience.

By the way, have we worked together before?...I was at the Mt St Hellens relocation in 2005.  If you've spent as much time working with tribes as you say, I can't help but think we've worked together before.  If you've worked with my tribe and have followed my posts you've got to have an idea who I am. 

Doesn't it seem to you like state/tribal wildlife coops are popping up all over the place now.  I can't help but think WDFW sees a potential advantage in working with tribes that have the funding to do this type of work, especially when state budgets are tight...could be a good thing.  We've been assisting WDFW with comp counts in a GMU they don't even think we have the right to hunt in...this whole state/tribal thing baffles me. 

Yes I have a sick passion for abuse I guess.  I know its an uphill battle that I really don't plan on winning, but I know there are others out there following the threads that don't post, that might take something from the debates that is either informative or positive. 

I am sure we have worked together before, however I haven't quite put my finger on who you are yet. I worked both captures at St. Helens and have worked on a few of the projects at Quinault in the past.  I have however enjoyed your posts, you have a great knack for keeping a level head.

Most of the tribes are in partnerships with the state now in some manner with big game management.  It just makes good sense with budget shortfalls to make you money go as far as you can.  Part of the problem is most folks don't know about any of the work that the tribes are doing to help out with game management.  Unless there is a huge project that involves the states PR people most of the everyday management stuff flies under everyone's radar.

[trophyhunt]

The mucks have done nothing to help the white river herd, shooting them at night, on private property, on there wintering grounds and using rifles from august till February isn't exactly the same season we get. Yes we can hunt Sept till Jan in some cases- if you have a special permit which is hard to come by. But we are restricted to the use of different weapons like archery, muzzleloader and rifle at different times if you have a multi-season permit and then we are restricted to what units we can hunt, which helps for escapement. Killing the white river herd on there wintering ground and hunting them relentlessly is not a good way to help them, that's why I started this post. I don't believe they should be doing what they want in that unit, while we are restricted.

[7mag.]

It's very easy for someone on the outside looking in, to have an attitude of "what's the problem? The natives are just doing what they are allowed to do." For most of us, we have grown up hunting fishing these lands the same as the natives that live here. We have also watched the local natives abuse their privileges time and time again. There most definitely is a "get under our skin" factor, as I have had numerous encounters with natives that flaunt their special rights in our faces. Bragging about how many deer and elk they have killed that particular year, and so on. I have witnessed natives breaking both state and tribal laws, and turned them in, only to watch them walk, with no penalty what so ever. I've had enough, I work hard, and pay my own way, and follow the same laws as all American's. I have native ancestry, my grandmother was full native. I have never even checked to see if I qualify for special hunting rights, because it's wrong. I am no more special than any one else. It's time for the en titlist attitude to stop. This country will be in constant turmoil until everyone is truly equal, and lowlifes are held accountable for abusing the system.

So, Coastal Native, I appreciate your cool headed point of view when it comes to these types of topics. You help us see things from a different angle. Think about our angle, how pissed would you be if the tides were turned?

Practical Approach, I'm sure you are doing good work with the tribes and the WDFW, but don't believe everything they tell you. We are not a bunch of dumb hillbilly's, we are avid sportsmen,and see the ugly truth, the way it really happens.

[trophyhunt]

It's very easy for someone on the outside looking in, to have an attitude of "what's the problem? The natives are just doing what they are allowed to do." For most of us, we have grown up hunting fishing these lands the same as the natives that live here. We have also watched the local natives abuse their privileges time and time again. There most definitely is a "get under our skin" factor, as I have had numerous encounters with natives that flaunt their special rights in our faces. Bragging about how many deer and elk they have killed that particular year, and so on. I have witnessed natives breaking both state and tribal laws, and turned them in, only to watch them walk, with no penalty what so ever. I've had enough, I work hard, and pay my own way, and follow the same laws as all American's. I have native ancestry, my grandmother was full native. I have never even checked to see if I qualify for special hunting rights, because it's wrong. I am no more special than any one else. It's time for the en titlist attitude to stop. This country will be in constant turmoil until everyone is truly equal, and lowlifes are held accountable for abusing the system.

So, Coastal Native, I appreciate your cool headed point of view when it comes to these types of topics. You help us see things from a different angle. Think about our angle, how pissed would you be if the tides were turned?

Practical Approach, I'm sure you are doing good work with the tribes and the WDFW, but don't believe everything they tell you. We are not a bunch of dumb hillbilly's, we are avid sportsmen,and see the ugly truth, the way it really happens.

:yeah:I couldn't have said it better. Thanks

[Coastal_native]

It's very easy for someone on the outside looking in, to have an attitude of "what's the problem? The natives are just doing what they are allowed to do." For most of us, we have grown up hunting fishing these lands the same as the natives that live here. We have also watched the local natives abuse their privileges time and time again. There most definitely is a "get under our skin" factor, as I have had numerous encounters with natives that flaunt their special rights in our faces. Bragging about how many deer and elk they have killed that particular year, and so on. I have witnessed natives breaking both state and tribal laws, and turned them in, only to watch them walk, with no penalty what so ever. I've had enough, I work hard, and pay my own way, and follow the same laws as all American's. I have native ancestry, my grandmother was full native. I have never even checked to see if I qualify for special hunting rights, because it's wrong. I am no more special than any one else. It's time for the en titlist attitude to stop. This country will be in constant turmoil until everyone is truly equal, and lowlifes are held accountable for abusing the system.

So, Coastal Native, I appreciate your cool headed point of view when it comes to these types of topics. You help us see things from a different angle. Think about our angle, how pissed would you be if the tides were turned?

Practical Approach, I'm sure you are doing good work with the tribes and the WDFW, but don't believe everything they tell you. We are not a bunch of dumb hillbilly's, we are avid sportsmen,and see the ugly truth, the way it really happens.

Actually, I should have never posted on this thread 7mag...I apologize.  I thought Practical's last post was pretty well said, especially since he has somewhat of an objective opinion.  I don't pretend to know anything about the Mucks situation...but it doesn't seem like the non tribal point of view changes too much depending on who's treaty area you live in.  As for your question about "how pissed I would be if the tides were turned?"...I would probably be just as pissed as all of my non tribal family members who hunt...or my 20 non tribal friends that I hunt the state seasons with every year...not pissed at all.  I wouldn't dwell on the isolated incidents that sometimes stem from tribal members abusing there rights...and I wouldn't use them in an attempt to discredit all tribes in order to push my own agenda.  

I go into these threads knowing I'm not going to change anyone's opinion.  If you hate the fact that Indians have more rights than you...that's fine...but, please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible for decimating game populations.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...

I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.

[lewy]

Well said 7mag

[grundy53]

"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...

I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.

Exactly! I think this is the point that is missed a lot by tribal defenders.

[Coastal_native]

"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...

I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.

Exactly! I think this is the point that is missed a lot by tribal defenders.

I don't know if you are referring to me, but I've already acknowledged this.  I don't like it when a tribal member hides behind the treaty to justify something that is unethical or against the law...It happens, maybe not as much as is expressed on this site, but I acknowledge that it happens. I've also admitted that it is hard to investigate, prosecute, and convict game violations, especially in small communities (like in Indian country). Most members on this forum make it sound as if no tribal member has ever gotten in trouble for violating a game law...and all non tribal poachers are caught, prosecuted, and convicted...that is not the case.

[grundy53]

"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...

I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.

Exactly! I think this is the point that is missed a lot by tribal defenders.

I don't know if you are referring to me, but I've already acknowledged this.  I don't like it when a tribal member hides behind the treaty to justify something that is unethical or against the law...It happens, maybe not as much as is expressed on this site, but I acknowledge that it happens. I've also admitted that it is hard to investigate, prosecute, and convict game violations, especially in small communities (like in Indian country). Most members on this forum make it sound as if no tribal member has ever gotten in trouble for violating a game law...and all non tribal poachers are caught, prosecuted, and convicted...that is not the case.

No, I wasn't singling you out. Your actually really level headed and open minded.

[trophyhunt]

...and I wouldn't use them in an attempt to discredit all tribes in order to push my own agenda.  

Our agenda is that we all are equal, and this special treament needs to stop.

[Coastal_native]

...and I wouldn't use them in an attempt to discredit all tribes in order to push my own agenda.  

Our agenda is that we all are equal, and this special treament needs to stop.

That is a viewpoint I can work with...I may not agree, but I can work with it.  I understand that there are several reasons why people have a problem with tribal hunting.  If I was to categorize yours...I would presume based on your comment that you feel treaties create inequality...and that's the main reason behind your distaste for tribal hunting?

I will refrain from expressing my thoughts on how I think treaties have nothing to do with creating inequality...I've beaten that horse to death in previous threads.