White river special permit holders of the past

[7mag.]

"please don't use your time trying to promote the notion that Indians are committing game violations at a higher rate than Non Indians...or that Indians are solely responsible decimating game populations"...

I feel that the non indian poachers and indian poachers are one in the same... The only difference is the indian poacher can hide behind the tribe. And both contribute to the demise of our fish and game.

I know that non tribal hunters commit far more game violations than tribal members. I don't know the percentage of tribal members involved in illegal activities, and I am sure that it changes drastically from tribe to tribe. I am sure that the majority of tribal hunters comply with the rules as do the majority of state hunters. It's that way in all of our society, 20% of the population, commits 80% of the crimes. I am upset about the lack of accountability when the tribal members do commit an offense. The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they commit a game violation. I know that the likelyhood of tribal game laws becoming equal to the state, is low, but it is a difference in opinion, depending on witch side of the fence your standing. The lack of punishment for violations, however, is unacceptable.

Coastal Native, feel free to comment on anything that I post. I enjoy your posts, and respect your opinion. As far as tribal issues go, I think that you have the most well written posts, of anyone on this site. I like to learn, and a difference in perspective is always a good way to learn.

[Coastal_native]

The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they commit a game violation.

The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they GET CAUGHT committing a game violation...I think that's what you meant to say?

I will add to that, and say...WDFW enforcement officers are out in full force during the state seasons...but outside of the state seasons when me and my fellow tribal hunters leave the reservation to hunt, I rarely see them (and it's understandable, because they have other work duties besides patrolling big game seasons)...who's watching the woods then?  I still see an awful lot of young non tribal guys driving around in 4x4's with guns and alcohol, although it would be purely speculative for me to say that they are all out poaching.

That's a statistic you can't look up on WDFW's website.  They can track how many people they check and how many citations they hand out, but they can't keep track of poachers that they don't catch. 

I don't fault them for this...It's just how it is. It is a similar situation with tribal enforcement.  The argument that state hunters rarely get away with game violations is overstated on this forum, IMO. 

[trophyhunt]

My whole point of this thread was to get people's awareness up on permit only units and what the tribes do in those units that have less non-indian hunters in them. I'm all for obtaining goals for the elk population but when the scale is tipping to one side and we all don't have the same goal in mind then the unit should be opened up to all. If you agree please call Dave Ware at 360-902-2509. Thanks for all the comments, most of them anyway.

[Coastal_native]

My whole point of this thread was to get people's awareness up on permit only units and what the tribes do in those units that have less non-indian hunters in them. I'm all for obtaining goals for the elk population but when the scale is tipping to one side and we all don't have the same goal in mind then the unit should be opened up to all. If you agree please call Dave Ware at 360-902-2509. Thanks for all the comments, most of them anyway.

 :)Thats funny...I admit i didn't even really read the OP...sometimes I put my blinders on when I start seeing the tribal comments.  This thread was jacked three times over...sorry. 

[trophyhunt]

I don't mind, the indian hunting issues are the most important thing that we talk about on this site in my belief. Of course the wolf issue will be much worse in the years to come. We all need to contact the fish and game to tell them what we feel about allowing the wolves to grow in our state, not that they will listen.

[7mag.]

The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they commit a game violation.

The state hunters get punished, almost every time, when they GET CAUGHT committing a game violation...I think that's what you meant to say?

I will add to that, and say...WDFW enforcement officers are out in full force during the state seasons...but outside of the state seasons when me and my fellow tribal hunters leave the reservation to hunt, I rarely see them (and it's understandable, because they have other work duties besides patrolling big game seasons)...who's watching the woods then?  I still see an awful lot of young non tribal guys driving around in 4x4's with guns and alcohol, although it would be purely speculative for me to say that they are all out poaching.

That's a statistic you can't look up on WDFW's website.  They can track how many people they check and how many citations they hand out, but they can't keep track of poachers that they don't catch. 

I don't fault them for this...It's just how it is. It is a similar situation with tribal enforcement.  The argument that state hunters rarely get away with game violations is overstated on this forum, IMO. 

You're absolutely right, they can't punish someone that they don't catch. I'm sure that the non-tribal poaching, or littering, or just plain harassing wildlife is ten fold what the tribal poaching is. The difference, that I see, is when they are caught. I witnessed tribal members with radio equipment, tracking collared elk. Not unusual, that is a common practice. These individuals, all carried rifles except the one with the tracking equipment. Were they hunting? I can't prove it, but I called the game dept. and no one even showed up. I finally left in disgust after waiting for over an hour and a half.

I am told that these problems are very different depending on the tribe in question. I understand that most of the coastal tribes are very conservation concious, and manage the herds well. I have never been around them, so I don't know. I can only comment on what I have seen, and what I have been around my whole life.

As far as the comment that state hunter's rarely get away with game violations, I meant the one's that are caught. I am not talking about the poacher's that slip by. The non-tribal abuse of our public lands and game is a totally different subject, with just as big of problems, if not bigger. I don't want to sound like I hate Native American's or blame them for our game management problems. I am focusing, on this thread, on the problems associated with tribal hunting. I know that it is merely a drop in the bucket, concerning our game management in this state.

[Practical Approach]

7mag:  wow which tribe was using tracking equipment.  Did you talk to the guys.  You must have since you knew they were hunting a tribal season and were actually hunting right.   The reason I bring this up is that if I am darting game our dart guns can look exactly like rifles.  Scoped and everything.  Did this occur during a state hunting season.  If so which one.  Thanks for the info.

[7mag.]

7mag:  wow which tribe was using tracking equipment.  Did you talk to the guys.  You must have since you knew they were hunting a tribal season and were actually hunting right.   The reason I bring this up is that if I am darting game our dart guns can look exactly like rifles.  Scoped and everything.  Did this occur during a state hunting season.  If so which one.  Thanks for the info.

It was during modern deer season on the White River Tree Farm, about 7 years ago. I cannot prove that they were hunting. It was the same black Chevy pickup that I had seen a lot with elk in the back, and the methods(driving down the road, with 1 or 2 people in the back, with rifles). There was one man walking slowly down the road, with this truck following him. There was one man in the back of the truck, with a rifle, not a dart gun, definitely a rifle. There were several people in the truck with rifles (possibly dart guns, I couldn't tell). I had heard about this from a friend a couple of weeks prior, and thought that they must have been dart guns. This time, I had a good vantage point, and good optics, and they were moving slowly, so I watched them for some time. I never did see or hear them shoot. I don't know witch tribe it was, most likely Muckleshoot, as that is the tribe that I run into about 90% of the time up there. It is possible that they were performing an elk study, but it didn't look good, and especially during state deer season, and some of the same individuals that are often seen hunting the same area, the same way.

I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, and that what you have seen concerning conservation efforts is not true. I am just saying, don't believe everything they tell you. Some of them are up to no good, I have seen it. They use the tribe as protection to do what ever they want.

[Practical Approach]

That would be extremely unethical if what you saw did turn out to be hunting.  Usually, any work with animal capture takes place outside of the hunting seasons, both state and tribal. 

I hear what you are saying.  I have no doubt that some of the hunters are up to no good.  It is human nature that there are always going to be some bad apples out there.  I do feel that most tribes wildlife departments as managing agencies are solely out to do whats best for the animals and that it is some of the individual hunters that are breaking the rules or using the tribe as a shield when being prosecuted.  Hopefully things will get better over time.  Everyone have a Merry Christmas.

[7mag.]

That would be extremely unethical if what you saw did turn out to be hunting.  Usually, any work with animal capture takes place outside of the hunting seasons, both state and tribal. 

I hear what you are saying.  I have no doubt that some of the hunters are up to no good.  It is human nature that there are always going to be some bad apples out there.  I do feel that most tribes wildlife departments as managing agencies are solely out to do whats best for the animals and that it is some of the individual hunters that are breaking the rules or using the tribe as a shield when being prosecuted.  Hopefully things will get better over time.  Everyone have a Merry Christmas.

You have a Merry Christmas too, and thanks for your input.

[JCClement]

There should be no reason why all entities in this state could work together to come up with a better system.  Maybe I am naiive, but, for the overall health of all big game, permit only would seem to be the way to go, for all seasons, only to limit the pressure on the animals.  But it would have to be across the board, again, all entities in the state.

And death to all Wolves.