Whitetail management plan.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

feeding whitetails smack in the middle of a bad winter is too late. Read what happened in MI years ago, spent millions to feed the deer during one of their worst winters ever, thousands of deer died with full bellys of alfalfa. When deer get to the point of starvation, enzymes in their stomachs change to ba able digest woody browse things otherwise they would never eat, spring and summer.. u introduce leafy green alfalfa and they cant break it down, bloat and die

Yep..that's a great way to kill a lot of animals quick and as you mentioned is nothing like baiting during the hunting season. That is why this article doesn't really apply to this conversation. It is biologically sound but it isn't the same scenario as we are discussing.

I am however happy that people are coming up with biological arguments instead of the "well I don't do it because I am such a great hunter yet have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to baiting so I think it's wrong and should be illegal" arguments that we hear most often.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

feeding whitetails smack in the middle of a bad winter is too late. Read what happened in MI years ago, spent millions to feed the deer during one of their worst winters ever, thousands of deer died with full bellys of alfalfa. When deer get to the point of starvation, enzymes in their stomachs change to ba able digest woody browse things otherwise they would never eat, spring and summer.. u introduce leafy green alfalfa and they cant break it down, bloat and die

my point exactly. I feed all winter and don't stop untill the deer quit coming to the feed sometime in march. That MI fiasco was sad though. UT had a similar experience also years ago. As far as baits go they are not out usually long enough to do any harm.

Buck I think you are spot with what you said about baiting. I think it is a rare and quite possibly non-existent occurrence that baiting during the hunting season does any harm.

My biggest worry is people that start baiting when the weather turns to crap or feeding them a lot of food and then going cold turkey on them in the dead of winter.

There are some strong biological arguments against baiting during the dead of winter; drawing deer to wrong wintering locations, congregating deer in an area that can't support the numbers, drawing the deer through deep snow and away from thermo cover to feed; that is why I say the state feeding is worse than baiting during hunting season. All in all I think the deer are helped more often than hurt by winter feeding...it is those circumstances of changes in diet in the dead of winter that are the worst offender.

[jager]

feeding whitetails smack in the middle of a bad winter is too late. Read what happened in MI years ago, spent millions to feed the deer during one of their worst winters ever, thousands of deer died with full bellys of alfalfa. When deer get to the point of starvation, enzymes in their stomachs change to ba able digest woody browse things otherwise they would never eat, spring and summer.. u introduce leafy green alfalfa and they cant break it down, bloat and die

my point exactly. I feed all winter and don't stop untill the deer quit coming to the feed sometime in march. That MI fiasco was sad though. UT had a similar experience also years ago. As far as baits go they are not out usually long enough to do any harm.

Buck I think you are spot with what you said about baiting. I think it is a rare and quite possibly non-existent occurrence that baiting during the hunting season does any harm.

My biggest worry is people that start baiting when the weather turns to crap or feeding them a lot of food and then going cold turkey on them in the dead of winter.

There are some strong biological arguments against baiting during the dead of winter; drawing deer to wrong wintering locations, congregating deer in an area that can't support the numbers, drawing the deer through deep snow and away from thermo cover to feed; that is why I say the state feeding is worse than baiting during hunting season. All in all I think the deer are helped more often than hurt by winter feeding...it is those circumstances of changes in diet in the dead of winter that are the worst offender.

What I was trying to get at was...yes there is a difference between feeding for months as opposed to throwing out 100 lbs of corn and some hay for the deer in november then it dumps snow on them... probably/possibly not a good scenario. Lots of factors involved, weather, location, among others......

I too have a good chunk of property.... I used to feed/bait on...it wasn't for hunting purposes but for finding antlers....I'd put out a few bales in early november before the snows hit and by mid December I'd have at least a dozen sets. Prior to feeding I'd find them in this general area already....still do! This is in a wintering area....there was good thermal cover etc. I wasnt bringing them far maybe a mile...maybe less.

As I said before I am neither for or against this. I just think it needs to be done in a resopnsible manner. There's a lot of yahoos out there that do *censored* willy nilly just because they can.

he he..... I said yahoo AND willy nilly in the same sentence  

Again we need to stick together not necessarliy agree but stick together...... and there seems to be a lot of debating on here lately.....

[DBHAWTHORNE]

One other thing I would like to add. There are certain types of pelletized deer feed (that are fairly expensive) but would render the biological arguments (at least regarding digestion) against baiting null and void. These feeds are easily digestable and provide deer the natural nutrition that deer obtain through browse.... so even if we had more regulation on baiting there is really no sound argument against it. As far as lowering success rates there a lot more effective things that other states do that are better for impacting success rates.

Here is what I think is the best management for Whitetail in this state. I am not biologist but whitetails are my passion and I know what has worked out best for other states.

1. Get rid of user groups.
2. Archery season Sep 1 - Dec 15 anybody can hunt it even if they draw other tags and  it goes through all seasons (season rules like blaze orange apply)
3. Limit the number of firearm tags and make them for specific units.
4. Shorten the firearm season slightly but not much. (Mid Oct - First week in Nov. at latest.
5. Place Antler Restrictions on all whitetail (preferably spread...aside from being able to age a deer it is the preferred method and it has been done successfully by Georgia....but point restriction is better than nothing)
6. Micromanage the doe harvest as much as possible at a state level.
7. Limit the muzzleloader tags but open access statewide. If someone has an extra doe tag for a certain unit they should be able to use this weapon/season also. Season Dec 1 - Dec 15
8. Keep the one buck limit unless it is shown that the herd could handle more.

Some people argue that this is about big bucks but it's about a healthy herd. Some people argue about winter kill/wolves getting them instead of hunters... completely invalid.. how would killing more deer during the hunting season equal better for the herd if they are being taken out by winter or wolves..it can't (unless the herd is overpopulated and dying from starvation in the winter due to the overpopulation...not a highly likely scenario.. especially if the wolves are there) You give a program like this a few years and hardly anyone would want to go back to the way it used to be. Obviously adjustments may need to be made for season dates.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

feeding whitetails smack in the middle of a bad winter is too late. Read what happened in MI years ago, spent millions to feed the deer during one of their worst winters ever, thousands of deer died with full bellys of alfalfa. When deer get to the point of starvation, enzymes in their stomachs change to ba able digest woody browse things otherwise they would never eat, spring and summer.. u introduce leafy green alfalfa and they cant break it down, bloat and die

my point exactly. I feed all winter and don't stop untill the deer quit coming to the feed sometime in march. That MI fiasco was sad though. UT had a similar experience also years ago. As far as baits go they are not out usually long enough to do any harm.

Buck I think you are spot with what you said about baiting. I think it is a rare and quite possibly non-existent occurrence that baiting during the hunting season does any harm.

My biggest worry is people that start baiting when the weather turns to crap or feeding them a lot of food and then going cold turkey on them in the dead of winter.

There are some strong biological arguments against baiting during the dead of winter; drawing deer to wrong wintering locations, congregating deer in an area that can't support the numbers, drawing the deer through deep snow and away from thermo cover to feed; that is why I say the state feeding is worse than baiting during hunting season. All in all I think the deer are helped more often than hurt by winter feeding...it is those circumstances of changes in diet in the dead of winter that are the worst offender.

What I was trying to get at was...yes there is a difference between feeding for months as opposed to throwing out 100 lbs of corn and some hay for the deer in november then it dumps snow on them... probably/possibly not a good scenario. Lots of factors involved, weather, location, among others......

I too have a good chunk of property.... I used to feed/bait on...it wasn't for hunting purposes but for finding antlers....I'd put out a few bales in early november before the snows hit and by mid December I'd have at least a dozen sets. Prior to feeding I'd find them in this general area already....still do! This is in a wintering area....there was good thermal cover etc. I wasnt bringing them far maybe a mile...maybe less.

As I said before I am neither for or against this. I just think it needs to be done in a resopnsible manner. There's a lot of yahoos out there that do *censored* willy nilly just because they can.

he he..... I said yahoo AND willy nilly in the same sentence  

Again we need to stick together not necessarliy agree but stick together...... and there seems to be a lot of debating on here lately.....

I hear you on the sticking together. I think debate is good. I have definitely mulled things over and even had slight changes in ideas or been made to do further research on a subject due to these debates.

[huntnnw]

Good stuff... Alot of the non hunting  people who feed deer at their house have the worst effect on deer IMHO.. they see deer , it gets cold and snow flies. They think awe poor deer run to walmart or feed store and feed them in January and febuary.

[BeeMan]

People need to realize that the deer that attend these baits don't rely on them as their only source of food.  It is intended and is an appealing supplement to their natural food sources.  I have watched deer from my stand come to the bait and stop 40 yds away and spend 30 minutes feeding on fir needles and moss.  They never came all the way in because they were too cautious for whatever reason, but they didn't leave hungry either. Small doses of feed in late fall don't have as big of an impact on our whitetails digestion as is being portrayed in my opinion.  That damage occurs as has been pointed out in the later harsher months.  Not during the time baiting is happening.  As I said earlier if anything those baits are making those animals have a better chance at survival in the months ahead, benefiting all hunters not just those doing the baiting. If baiting (during hunting season) was hurting deer I would quit in a heartbeat!  Ive only seen evidence to the contrary in our area!  

[buck man]

1. Get rid of user groups.
2. Archery season Sep 1 - Dec 15 anybody can hunt it even if they draw other tags and  it goes through all seasons (season rules like blaze orange apply)
3. Limit the number of firearm tags and make them for specific units.
4. Shorten the firearm season slightly but not much. (Mid Oct - First week in Nov. at latest.
5. Place Antler Restrictions on all whitetail (preferably spread...aside from being able to age a deer it is the preferred method and it has been done successfully by Georgia....but point restriction is better than nothing)
6. Micromanage the doe harvest as much as possible at a state level.
7. Limit the muzzleloader tags but open access statewide. If someone has an extra doe tag for a certain unit they should be able to use this weapon/season also. Season Dec 1 - Dec 15
8. Keep the one buck limit unless it is shown that the herd could handle more.

Some people argue that this is about big bucks but it's about a healthy herd. Some people argue about winter kill/wolves getting them instead of hunters... completely invalid.. how would killing more deer during the hunting season equal better for the herd if they are being taken out by winter or wolves..it can't (unless the herd is overpopulated and dying from starvation in the winter due to the overpopulation...not a highly likely scenario.. especially if the wolves are there) You give a program like this a few years and hardly anyone would want to go back to the way it used to be. Obviously adjustments may need to be made for season dates.

 

Its nice to see someone out there that can put down in writing what I have been thinking and have written in my hunting journals. I think your proposals are spot on. Its also not as easy to post from my droid as from my lap top so i like it when someone writes what i think. Thanks and good job!

[DBHAWTHORNE]

People need to realize that the deer that attend these baits don't rely on them as their only source of food.  It is intended and is an appealing supplement to their natural food sources.  I have watched deer from my stand come to the bait and stop 40 yds away and spend 30 minutes feeding on fir needles and moss.  They never came all the way in because they were too cautious for whatever reason, but they didn't leave hungry either. Small doses of feed in late fall don't have as big of an impact on our whitetails digestion as is being portrayed in my opinion.  That damage occurs as has been pointed out in the later harsher months.  Not during the time baiting is happening.  As I said earlier if anything those baits are making those animals have a better chance at survival in the months ahead, benefiting all hunters not just those doing the baiting. If baiting (during hunting season) was hurting deer I would quit in a heartbeat!  Ive only seen evidence to the contrary in our area!  

 

This is exactly why I say the cases of a deer having issues from this are much rarer (and possibly non-existent) than opponents to baiting often argue. Obviously they don't bait or have cameras over bait so they can't see that the deer often don't spend that much time at the bait. Now...I will admit occasionally you have a deer (usually the some of the younger ones) that hit the bait pretty heavy. But it is rare for me to have a deer completely gorge themselves on bait. In addition..like you said... we as hunters aren't throwing it at them in the most difficult times for winter survival.

[gjbruny]

DB- that is pretty much how the midwest works...... and it has worked!

from a selfish standpoint.... i like having a choose your weapon state. it gives me a lot more of the woods to myself vs. having all the other predominantly gun/muzzy guys out there with me putting more pressure on deer. having said that, it would give everyone A LOT more days in the field and i have seen how well it works in other states.

i'd be all over that plan if we could get it to a vote. the only thing that has me concerned is the hunter to deer ratio..... i would hope that it wouldn't end up reducing the days in the field in the long-run...... but if it is micromanaged, that shouldn't be a problem. maybe even something along the lines of an A and B Tag like Idaho has for elk.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

DB- that is pretty much how the midwest works...... and it has worked!

from a selfish standpoint.... i like having a choose your weapon state. it gives me a lot more of the woods to myself vs. having all the other predominantly gun/muzzy guys out there with me putting more pressure on deer. having said that, it would give everyone A LOT more days in the field and i have seen how well it works in other states.

i'd be all over that plan if we could get it to a vote.

I hear you about the user groups. I always say the limited hunting pressure (at least while whitetail hunting with a bow) is the only thing that I like about the user groups. I think ultimately it will be alright. There will be a lot of guys that won't even bother if they don't draw the rifle tag and then there will be the guys who won't hit it that hard. Most states that have whitetail have them statewide and since we don't there could come a case where we even have to draw for archery tags. Colorado does this but so far the draw process for archery tags has been 100%. I am in favor of getting rid of the user groups because I can see how much they divide us as hunters.

[huntnnw]

I am all for getting rid of user groups