Whitetail management plan.

[BeeMan]

That is funny, I know a lot of bowhunters in the 101 unit and none of us have to cheat, I mean use bait.

Take them out with your bare hands do you?

Nope, just with my bow, a treestand and many years of experience.

Plenty of guys I know think our treestands are cheating too.

Dont forget about our rangefinders...deffinately cheating.  

[BeeMan]

Oh, and our camo, no more camo... its cheating if u are hiding from the deer.

[huntnnw]

Its all cheating unless u didnt kill it with your hands or teeth

[BeeMan]

Sorry for my sarcasm just irritates me when people paint themselves as somehow being superior for using a different method. 

[DBHAWTHORNE]

There is a world of difference between sitting in a tree waiting for a buck to walk by and conditioning it to come to a certain spot altering it's natural feeding habits.  I've shot them from a tree without a treestand as well as from the ground.

Of course there is a difference just like with any other methods. I too have shot them from a treestand, from the ground,  with bait, without bait, from a blind, stalking, used cameras, haven't used cameras and on and on. They all have their various challenges and I never found one so effective as to deem it cheating.

I have also conditioned deer to travel certain spots by cutting/fixing fences or opening/closing gates on a family farm, downing trees and altering terrain. I have fertilized oak trees, apple trees and kudzu.

I have made mock scrapes, I have added artificial scent to scrape lines and literally conditioned bucks to come into an area.

There is a world of difference in all of these methods just like there is between sitting in a tree and using bait. From treestands to stalking in my socks...it all happens to give me a slight edge, an advantage with a limited range weapon. If I considered those things cheating I couldn't hunt. You are simply choosing one method that you prefer not to use because of whatever advantage it gives great or small and call it cheating.

If you have a problem with disrupting natural feeding habits then why do you hunt??? Almost nothing has a greater impact on natural feeding habits than hunting.

[huntnnw]

Yup pretty prevelant on here, get use to it

[BeeMan]

There is a world of difference between sitting in a tree waiting for a buck to walk by and conditioning it to come to a certain spot altering it's natural feeding habits.  I've shot them from a tree without a treestand as well as from the ground.

Of course there is a difference just like with any other methods. I too have shot them from a treestand, from the ground,  with bait, without bait, from a blind, stalking, used cameras, haven't used cameras and on and on. They all have their various challenges and I never found one so effective as to deem it cheating.

I have also conditioned deer to travel certain spots by cutting/fixing fences or opening/closing gates on a family farm, downing trees and altering terrain. I have fertilized oak trees, apple trees and kudzu.

I have made mock scrapes, I have added artificial scent to scrape lines and literally conditioned bucks to come into an area.

There is a world of difference in all of these methods just like there is between sitting in a tree and using bait. From treestands to stalking in my socks...it all happens to give me a slight edge, an advantage with a limited range weapon. If I considered those things cheating I couldn't hunt. You are simply choosing one method that you prefer not to use because of whatever advantage it gives great or small and call it cheating.

If you have a problem with disrupting natural feeding habits then why do you hunt??? Almost nothing has a greater impact on natural feeding habits than hunting.

   Well said Sir!

[gjbruny]

I have been looking at the baiting of deer as done in other states for a few years. I have  contacted all the western states except Texas plus a few states from the great lakes region.. After moving back to the N.E. corner after having been gone for 25 years, I was originally against baiting. Things have changed in the N.E. corner, baiting is prevalent and there are a number of abuses. The access to private land or any land has become difficult. I now feel there is a case for legal baiting but, I feel some regulations are do. I would like to see the time that bait for hunting can be limited to some thing like 48 hours before a season the early to mid November. Deer patterns and possibly migration can be influenced by baiting. Deer baiting has been outlawed in the lower peninsula of Michigan because of Bovine Tuberculosis and C.W.D. Other states have regulations pertaining to the type of bait, amount of bait, outlawing bait in Grizzly bear recovery areas.

There are those who are baiting bear and turkey saying they are placing bait for deer.

I know one senior in high school who's senior project has revolved around deer baiting. He has purchased 4 cameras and recorded activity on random trails, how it changed when bait added, how different baits draw animals, and how long until normal behavior resumes after baiting ceased.

I think that baiting in areas of development can attract deer to a safe spot for harvest,
and possibly provide a means for elderly, handicapped, and youth to harvest a animal. Bait can also attract deer to a area where animals can be taken, from areas where hunting is not safe, allowed, or heavily posted by nonhunters. They all complain when the roses get eaten.

All the parameters of baiting are being looked, at we need to know what we want and how we feel. There are to many factors to baiting, to cover in this posting.

now that is a fantastic post!!!!!.... while i don't hunt over them, i don't despise baiting but i think regulating it or eliminating it for a while to help the herd could be a great thing.... especially if it meant that we could keep the days we currently have or even get back the days that we have lost in the season.

some people "think" (here we go again) that what is good for one is good for all and that mind set is dangerous... i see it all the time in the Trad circles and it comes off as an elitest attitude to those outside that circle.... not good.

when the discussion of baiting comes up, the argument comes up of "what if we took decoys away from duck hunters.... or baiting away for bears.... or hounds away from lion hunting.... or bait away from fishing.... the thing is, like a solid management plan, all species are different and micro management is critical. in this situation, what works for one, doesn't necessarily apply to others.

for instance, how many times does everyone here see bears in the woods? now how often do those that do see them, see them within bow range or can get within bow range? bait hunting bears is one of the few ways to truly hunt them and especially with a bow..... partly because there are so few of them compared to other species as well as them not being an animal that is particularly patternable. If this were prince of whales island, it would be a different story…. But here?

now take whitetails.... how many times do we see them (other than every single day). and with a little homework, how often can we get within bow range without bait (other than every singe day ). deer are creatures of habit and are patternable. not to mention that there are tons of them. are baits as essential to deer hunting as they are to bear hunting?

another example is the use of dogs for lions. hounds are legal in a number of states to hunt deer. how many here would like to see them legal in WA for deer hunting..... imagine sitting in complete silence or still hunting and then a pack of dogs comes barreling through the woods with deer blowing out in every direction and shots are ringing out everywhere.... sound like fun? i can attest that the few states that still allow dogs for deer don't have very good deer hunting.... or i should say good quality deer hunting. but i am guessing that most here would be for bringing back dogs for Lion hunting to get them under control and keep them there right? so would it be safe to assume that these same people would be happy to see the use of dogs in deer hunting here? If not, well isn’t that like taking baiting away from fishing and taking baiting away from deer hunting? (sarcasm)

the fact is, different species have different habits and require different tactics. bears are different from lions, lions are different fromj deer and elk. to say that baiting bears or fish is the same as baiting deer and elk is a silly analogy.

the comment above about baiting changing deer's natural movements is so very true. 2 of the farms i hunt are comprised of about 9k acres. deer in the summer months are very very patternable up until about 2 weeks prior to the early archery season when the few that now know about the adjacent timber CO. land start baiting.... then about 1/3 of the deer are seen on that section of the farm. the same is very true of the late season and now i am worried about the deer that live where my home is this year. the deer were up here hot and heavy but as soon as late gun ended, two guys that bowhunt had baits set up just above the river.... and A LOT of bait sites. the deer were gone almost instantly..... and now they are snow locked down on the river with very very little food as compared to up here around the house where there are Ag fields that they could have wintered on.... and the winter is starting to take it's toll down there now... it is sad to see.

most arguments amongst us wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the element of selfishness. there is no question that baiting increases the odds of either killing animals or killing big animals depending on what the hunter is after. we can talk about how much work it is, how much it costs ect ect. but the bottom line is, you can buy consistently better success rates with baiting vs. hunting without the use of baits..... and hunting without baits IS more work, and more time consuming to keep the success rates up to the levels of baiting. but for some species, it can be next to impossible to hunt them without the use of baits. for some animals such as bears or fish it may be the only realistic way of taking game.... you want to kill a Leopard? your only choice for that hunt is with baits and that includes with a rifle..... and a red light. for other more numerous animals like deer or elk, bait may be desireable... but not neccesary. so if it is ok to use lights on Leopards, should we allow them on deer or elk (ok, some of you please don't answer that LOL).

So it comes back to selfishness…… those that are staunch supporters of baiting deer or elk get upset at the thought of losing that tactic because they know that their success rates will more than likely go down, be it trophies or consistent kills. Those that say it has no place in hunting are upset that it exists because they feel that it is an “easy way” (example) to take animals and think their standard of hunting should be everyone’s. Outfitters in our state will hate it because they know that client success rates will not be as high and they are going to have to work harder to get clients on animals. WDFW will have a hard time getting rid of it because they know that higher success rates generally mean more tags sold and especially more Non-res tags. Everyone has their reason for either wanting or refuting the use of baits and all of them are for selfish reasons…. Instead of thinking about how does it help or hurt the herd.

the argument for or against baiting could go on forever..... it is kind of like technology in hunting and where do we finally draw the line?

Regardless of what happens with baiting….. if it means giving it up for a while (even for using baits to do buck inventories with trail cams) so that we can maintain days or even gain back days in the field, I am all for it…… more importantly, if there is a pilot period and/or units used, and they provide sound evidence that it proves to work to increase the quality of the herd I am even more for it…… and I would hope all of us could put away the selfish cards for a while to let it work if there is evidence that it will.

[PolarBear]

You guys are funny.  Seems like a few folks are overly defensive.   I don't really care what you do, if that is what it takes for you to get your deer then have at it. It isn't something I have to resort to.  You girls don't need to get your panties all in a wad.  

[DBHAWTHORNE]

You guys are funny.  Seems like a few folks are overly defensive.   I don't really care what you do, if that is what it takes for you to get your deer then have at it. It ain't for me.  You don't need to get your panties all in a wad.  

No panties in a wad. Just refuting your weak logic.

I do need to do it because I am not as awesome and experienced of a hunter as you. Please don't vote it out.

[PolarBear]

There is the overly defensive thing that I was talking about.  I will never vote or push to have it made illegal, I just refuse to participate in it even though It could benefit me due to the fact that I live 400 miles from my "honey hole" and usually only get less than 3-4 days per year to hunt it.  Like I said, do what you want as long as it is still legal, I personally don't see any challenge in baiting, it just ain't for me.

[BeeMan]

Nothing "overly defensive" about responding when you taktics are being called cheating.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

There is the overly defensive thing that I was talking about.  I will never vote or push to have it made illegal, I just refuse to participate in it even though It could benefit me due to the fact that I live 400 miles from my "honey hole" and usually only get less than 3-4 days per year to hunt it.  Like I said, do what you want as long as it is still legal, I personally don't see any challenge in baiting, it just ain't for me.

Well of course it's defensive. I am defending a position. That is what it is supposed to be. "Overly" defensive. I disagree, it is a calculated response to your commensurate remarks.

[PolarBear]

 

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I have been looking at the baiting of deer as done in other states for a few years. I have  contacted all the western states except Texas plus a few states from the great lakes region.. After moving back to the N.E. corner after having been gone for 25 years, I was originally against baiting. Things have changed in the N.E. corner, baiting is prevalent and there are a number of abuses. The access to private land or any land has become difficult. I now feel there is a case for legal baiting but, I feel some regulations are do. I would like to see the time that bait for hunting can be limited to some thing like 48 hours before a season the early to mid November. Deer patterns and possibly migration can be influenced by baiting. Deer baiting has been outlawed in the lower peninsula of Michigan because of Bovine Tuberculosis and C.W.D. Other states have regulations pertaining to the type of bait, amount of bait, outlawing bait in Grizzly bear recovery areas.

There are those who are baiting bear and turkey saying they are placing bait for deer.

I know one senior in high school who's senior project has revolved around deer baiting. He has purchased 4 cameras and recorded activity on random trails, how it changed when bait added, how different baits draw animals, and how long until normal behavior resumes after baiting ceased.

I think that baiting in areas of development can attract deer to a safe spot for harvest,
and possibly provide a means for elderly, handicapped, and youth to harvest a animal. Bait can also attract deer to a area where animals can be taken, from areas where hunting is not safe, allowed, or heavily posted by nonhunters. They all complain when the roses get eaten.

All the parameters of baiting are being looked, at we need to know what we want and how we feel. There are to many factors to baiting, to cover in this posting.

now that is a fantastic post!!!!!.... while i don't hunt over them, i don't despise baiting but i think regulating it or eliminating it for a while to help the herd could be a great thing.... especially if it meant that we could keep the days we currently have or even get back the days that we have lost in the season.

some people "think" (here we go again) that what is good for one is good for all and that mind set is dangerous... i see it all the time in the Trad circles and it comes off as an elitest attitude to those outside that circle.... not good.

when the discussion of baiting comes up, the argument comes up of "what if we took decoys away from duck hunters.... or baiting away for bears.... or hounds away from lion hunting.... or bait away from fishing.... the thing is, like a solid management plan, all species are different and micro management is critical. in this situation, what works for one, doesn't necessarily apply to others.

for instance, how many times does everyone here see bears in the woods? now how often do those that do see them, see them within bow range or can get within bow range? bait hunting bears is one of the few ways to truly hunt them and especially with a bow..... partly because there are so few of them compared to other species as well as them not being an animal that is particularly patternable. If this were prince of whales island, it would be a different story…. But here?

now take whitetails.... how many times do we see them (other than every single day). and with a little homework, how often can we get within bow range without bait (other than every singe day ). deer are creatures of habit and are patternable. not to mention that there are tons of them. are baits as essential to deer hunting as they are to bear hunting?

another example is the use of dogs for lions. hounds are legal in a number of states to hunt deer. how many here would like to see them legal in WA for deer hunting..... imagine sitting in complete silence or still hunting and then a pack of dogs comes barreling through the woods with deer blowing out in every direction and shots are ringing out everywhere.... sound like fun? i can attest that the few states that still allow dogs for deer don't have very good deer hunting.... or i should say good quality deer hunting. but i am guessing that most here would be for bringing back dogs for Lion hunting to get them under control and keep them there right? so would it be safe to assume that these same people would be happy to see the use of dogs in deer hunting here? If not, well isn’t that like taking baiting away from fishing and taking baiting away from deer hunting? (sarcasm)

the fact is, different species have different habits and require different tactics. bears are different from lions, lions are different fromj deer and elk. to say that baiting bears or fish is the same as baiting deer and elk is a silly analogy.

the comment above about baiting changing deer's natural movements is so very true. 2 of the farms i hunt are comprised of about 9k acres. deer in the summer months are very very patternable up until about 2 weeks prior to the early archery season when the few that now know about the adjacent timber CO. land start baiting.... then about 1/3 of the deer are seen on that section of the farm. the same is very true of the late season and now i am worried about the deer that live where my home is this year. the deer were up here hot and heavy but as soon as late gun ended, two guys that bowhunt had baits set up just above the river.... and A LOT of bait sites. the deer were gone almost instantly..... and now they are snow locked down on the river with very very little food as compared to up here around the house where there are Ag fields that they could have wintered on.... and the winter is starting to take it's toll down there now... it is sad to see.

most arguments amongst us wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the element of selfishness. there is no question that baiting increases the odds of either killing animals or killing big animals depending on what the hunter is after. we can talk about how much work it is, how much it costs ect ect. but the bottom line is, you can buy consistently better success rates with baiting vs. hunting without the use of baits..... and hunting without baits IS more work, and more time consuming to keep the success rates up to the levels of baiting. but for some species, it can be next to impossible to hunt them without the use of baits. for some animals such as bears or fish it may be the only realistic way of taking game.... you want to kill a Leopard? your only choice for that hunt is with baits and that includes with a rifle..... and a red light. for other more numerous animals like deer or elk, bait may be desireable... but not neccesary. so if it is ok to use lights on Leopards, should we allow them on deer or elk (ok, some of you please don't answer that LOL).

So it comes back to selfishness…… those that are staunch supporters of baiting deer or elk get upset at the thought of losing that tactic because they know that their success rates will more than likely go down, be it trophies or consistent kills. Those that say it has no place in hunting are upset that it exists because they feel that it is an “easy way” (example) to take animals and think their standard of hunting should be everyone’s. Outfitters in our state will hate it because they know that client success rates will not be as high and they are going to have to work harder to get clients on animals. WDFW will have a hard time getting rid of it because they know that higher success rates generally mean more tags sold and especially more Non-res tags. Everyone has their reason for either wanting or refuting the use of baits and all of them are for selfish reasons…. Instead of thinking about how does it help or hurt the herd.

the argument for or against baiting could go on forever..... it is kind of like technology in hunting and where do we finally draw the line?

Regardless of what happens with baiting….. if it means giving it up for a while (even for using baits to do buck inventories with trail cams) so that we can maintain days or even gain back days in the field, I am all for it…… more importantly, if there is a pilot period and/or units used, and they provide sound evidence that it proves to work to increase the quality of the herd I am even more for it…… and I would hope all of us could put away the selfish cards for a while to let it work if there is evidence that it will.

GJ; well written. I do disagree with you on several points but thank you for making a well thought out biological argument against baiting.

I strongly disagree with "and hunting without baits IS more work, and more time consuming to keep the success rates up to the levels of baiting."

and

"there is no question that baiting increases the odds of either killing animals or killing big animals depending on what the hunter is after." In the state of WA..with or without bait I have never seen a time where killing a legal whitetail within a few days would be an issue. With big animals I see an ever so slight advantage but there is also an advantage to hunting in areas where baits are non-existent.... Whitetail hunting in ID and Montana is great without baiting and I haven't noticed any lower success rates on big bucks than we see here.