Whitetail management plan.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I know you are enjoying yourself. It's easy to get me started.

[BeeMan]

"the fact is, different species have different habits and require different tactics. bears are different from lions, lions are different fromj deer and elk. to say that baiting bears or fish is the same as baiting deer and elk is a silly analogy."..GJ                                                                                 

I have to disagree that its a bad analogy.  You are right that all animals are different and have different habits but no matter what tactic you use the end goal is the same.  To suggest that baiting is ok for one because there is less of that species and they are a harder to hunt (bear) doesn't hold any weight with me.  If you hunt hard enough you can kill a bear or deer without bait, but u can also kill them with bait and it doesn't mean its any less ok in either situation. (legality permitting) And I'm sorry I don't see it as being selfish if I'm trying to defend a preferred hunting method. You would also see success rates go down if u took scopes off of rifles and to suggest that rifle hunters would be being selfish if they got upset over it is absurd.  The selfishness comes into play when people get jealous about something someone else is doing that they feel gives the other person an advantage and that's exactly what is happening here.  

[gjbruny]

beeman- sure it is selfish.... we all are by nature. defending a "preferred method" is being selfish if it is for a want of yours. it is hard to convey the tone in my voice through a keyboard so please don't think what i am saying is like me calling you a selfish prick (that is an example, not what i am actually saying LOL). the reason you are defending it is because YOU like it..... not because of what it may or may not do for the herd.


as far as the analogy thing goes.....  rifles and scopes are a totally separate issue. modern firearms are just that.... modern.... anything goes..... and remember, telescopic sights were around before modern cartridge guns.... so we could make the argument that they should be used on muzzys. while i do agree that limiting rifles to open sights would decrease success to some degree, do you think the percentage would be as great as when bear baiting was outlawed? we'll never know any hard numbers but i think we know the answer.

the bear thing was brought up as an example..... i do consitently kill bears..... with a bow...... without baits..... by stalking.... in WA. trust me when i say..... i am not jealous of anyone or what they do. i can and do kill big animals very consistently in multiple states. i'm not trying to be pompous, just stating a fact.


so would you be for or against the use of hounds in deer hunting here in WA?

[jager]

I have been following this for a while....
No one asked but here is my   ......

I am neither for or against baiting whitetails. Never done it but...ya never know

Based on what I have seen on this forum ....this year I would say that the guys doing the baiting seem to have an advantage....let me rephrase that.
The guys baiting seemed to have a much higher success rate on Mature....I'm talking 150 inch bucks or better. Granted, there may be other factors involved, such as the weather this year.
Regardless....there were a bunch of big whiteys killed. That is what is being hunted here...big bucks.

The big bucks have to be there to begin with but I don't think that you can't deny....concentrating (attracting) the deer into certain area does up your odds...considerably

As was said earlier..camo, scents, hunting the wind, etc. up the odds. That's what we try to do. I think it's human nature to try and get to the end result in the best way possible.

I used to bait bear when it was legal. It was a lot of work! I did it because I could be selective and it upped my odds of seeing a large boar.

If that's what a guy wants to do have at it.

The only negative thing that t think that may occur in the future is, if the baiting becomes to prevalent is the influence on migration and winter health of the deer...if that becomes a factor then, I hate to say it....it may need to be regulated.

When the hound hunting, baiting, trapping initiatives went through. It was because the general public didn't understand AND because the sportsman didn't understand what this would lead to.

We need to stick together or we are screwed!

[boneaddict]

Good post Jager.

[BeeMan]

beeman- sure it is selfish.... we all are by nature. defending a "preferred method" is being selfish if it is for a want of yours. it is hard to convey the tone in my voice through a keyboard so please don't think what i am saying is like me calling you a selfish prick (that is an example, not what i am actually saying LOL). the reason you are defending it is because YOU like it..... not because of what it may or may not do for the herd.


as far as the analogy thing goes.....  rifles and scopes are a totally separate issue. modern firearms are just that.... modern.... anything goes..... and remember, telescopic sights were around before modern cartridge guns.... so we could make the argument that they should be used on muzzys. while i do agree that limiting rifles to open sights would decrease success to some degree, do you think the percentage would be as great as when bear baiting was outlawed? we'll never know any hard numbers but i think we know the answer.

the bear thing was brought up as an example..... i do consitently kill bears..... with a bow...... without baits..... by stalking.... in WA. trust me when i say..... i am not jealous of anyone or what they do. i can and do kill big animals very consistently in multiple states. i'm not trying to be pompous, just stating a fact.


so would you be for or against the use of hounds in deer hunting here in WA?

First off, If its selfish to want to defend my right to use a certain method than I guess I'm guilty! 
I happen to believe that every other sportsman would do the same if their methods were being attacked.
(Not so much by you but by the approach most take when they cite their arguments against baiting.)
I guess we are all selfish then.

Second I know that rifles and scopes are a completely different issue that's the point.  I may not use that method but just cause I don't use it doesent mean I'm out to get it banned!  Rifles have a much more negative impact on deer populations than baits so why no fuss over their use? 

I know the bear thing was an example, so was my comparisons to other methods, I'm not saying it cant be done without bait, it obviously can.  Just don't agree that it should be ok for one animal (Bear) and not for (Deer)! 

And I would be against hounds for hunting deer, It would be too hard getting the deer out of the tree after I killed it!.....   

I know there are plenty of hunters that have great success using different methods, nothing against any of them, why not the same courtesy in return?   

[huntnnw]

Baiting in some parts around here is insane! we were hunting a 100 ac chunk a couple years ago south of spokane, we hadnt seen any deer hunters all week. The landowner next to our piece we were hunting came over and started chatting with us, come to find out in the small area around where we were hunting there was close to 20 different baits being hunted that was just what he knew of by the locals!

[gjbruny]

I guess we are all selfish then.

that was my point exactly.... and yes.... we all are if we are defending something that may prove to go agains the greater good (increased herd quality). i'm not saying that baiting does or doesn't, just that if there is evidence that the herd would bennefit from bait restrictions, then why not give it a try..... especially if it give all hunters more days in the field? kind of a win win.

Second I know that rifles and scopes are a completely different issue that's the point.  I may not use that method but just cause I don't use it doesent mean I'm out to get it banned!  Rifles have a much more negative impact on deer populations than baits so why no fuss over their use? 

i don't see the WDFW ever doing anything too drastic, but actually, many midwest states have done just that. some counties in Iowa and Wisconsin are only allowed to use shotguns during their "gun" season while other units are allowed rifles with scopes. this was employed for the reasons you mentioned and it has worked..... but just like different species require different tactics, different terrain may require a different firearm choice.

 

Just don't agree that it should be ok for one animal (Bear) and not for (Deer)! 

And I would be against hounds for hunting deer, It would be too hard getting the deer out of the tree after I killed it!.....   

i'm with you on not wanting hounds during deer or elk season..... but is that not another hunting strategy that some others seem to enjoy? yet many of us would love to see it back in the mainstream for lions and bears right? so what gives?

the fact is that some animals, as much as we want to admit it or not, require different tactics to properly manage them ( kill them) and keep their numbers in check. the "Average Joe" as well as the seasoned bear hunter is FAR less successful and as a result less tags are sold without the use of baits.... a perfect example to that fact is how bear and lion tags are now sold vs. how they used to be sold before dogs and baits were outlawed. the WDFW makes sure they get their money by their tag sales structure.

deer and elk are infact different in the way that they can be hunted. turkeys are no different. do we need baits to kill them? definately not.... but could baiting them be effective in getting numbers of them back in check? i think so.

personally, i think that if  used as a management tool, that baiting can be a great method to control herds or flocks. Turkeys are a prime example.... we have so many in certain areas that it is borderline rediculous and i truly think theiur numbers have an adverse effect on the carrying capacity for deer and elk in certain areas. for instance, where i live, we have 3-500 birds at any given time around the house.... you should see what they can do to a winter wheat field in a week's time. if they were managed properly, we could get the flocks down to more controlled numbers in a season or two. instead of lumping turkey hunters into the late archery season (here is my selfishness) and or giving them the last few days of september that used to be early archery season.... lets give all hunters 6 tags in the spring and bait the hell out of them. once numbers are back in check, we eliminate baiting again.

i'm not saying baiting is bad by any means.... and in many cases i think it is great for a management tool. but if it came down to having less days in the field and no baiting or a few days in the field with baiting, i know where my vote will firmly be.

[BeeMan]

GJ...I guess we are just gonna disagree on a few points, I don't see the need to restrict baiting and I don't feel that it should be used as a management tool! If you want to manage the heard it would be just as effective to start issuing 2 tags per hunter as it would to start restricting and regulating baiting! 
Baiting doesn't guarantee that you will kill an animal.  All of the bow hunters that I know that use bait would still kill their deer every year if baiting was banned, we simply use the method because we enjoy the experience that it provides.  If it were not an option we would use a different method and still kill the same number of animals. 
 
And I quite frankly don't see any evidence that it is detrimental to heard health, in fact I see it the exact opposite.  Baiting is the only hunting method that I know of that actually gives something beneficial back to the very animals we are targeting. You cant tell me that alfalfa, corn, grain, mineral blocks etc... don't boost whitetail health and increase their survival rates going into winter. The deer obviously recognize this as well, otherwise they wouldn't show any interest in the baits. They go to the baits because they recognize it as a great food source, just as they recognize alfalfa fields etc.. as a great food source and they utilize them all year long. Any given bait can have as many as 20-40 deer coming in on a regular basis, of these only 1 (and in many cases none) are killed and the rest reap the benefits of free food and fatter bellies.  Yes it alters their natural feeding habits, (temporarily!) As soon as the baits are gone they go right back to their old patterns, habits and wintering areas! (fatter and happier i might add.) These animals have survived all that nature has thrown at them and thrived for thousands of years and I don't think that a few bails of hay put out for them to eat a few weeks out of each year has any negative impact on their future prospects of survival. 

And, lastly my response concerning hounds was meant to get a chuckle. Not my true feelings on the issue. I would have no problem letting someone use hounds for hunting Bear, Cougar, and Deer if it were legal.  Using hounds for hunting deer is still legal in other places (Arkansas for example) and has been for decades. I don't look on those hunters any differently for using that method. The few that do it obviously enjoy it and have used that method for years, probably since this country was founded and I'm sure Arkansas still has healthy deer populations. Just because I wouldn't use hounds doesent mean that I would try to take that right away from others if they are doing it legally.   
 

[jager]

Posted by: BeeMan

And I quite frankly don't see any evidence that it is detrimental to heard health, in fact I see it the exact opposite.  Baiting is the only hunting method that I know of that actually gives something beneficial back to the very animals we are targeting. You cant tell me that alfalfa, corn, grain, mineral blocks etc... don't boost whitetail health and increase their survival rates going into winter. The deer obviously recognize this as well, otherwise they wouldn't show any interest in the baits. They go to the baits because they recognize it as a great food source, just as they recognize alfalfa fields etc.. as a great food source and they utilize them all year long. Any given bait can have as many as 20-40 deer coming in on a regular basis, of these only 1 (and in many cases none) are killed and the rest reap the benefits of free food and fatter bellies.  Yes it alters their natural feeding habits, (temporarily!) As soon as the baits are gone they go right back to their old patterns, habits and wintering areas! (fatter and happier i might add.) These animals have survived all that nature has thrown at them and thrived for thousands of years and I don't think that a few bails of hay put out for them to eat a few weeks out of each year has any negative impact on their future prospects of survival. 

I'm not knocking the practice baiting....but here's an fyi.


January 9, 2008

KLAMATH FALLS (AP) — Humans who feel sorry for the deer in the winter can do more harm by feeding them, say some wildlife experts.

Six deer found dead in the Klamath Falls area recently probably died because they were fed an improper diet by humans, officials say.

“Looking at some stomach contents, I’m seeing grain and alfalfa and things they’re not supposed to be eating this time of year,” said Liz Diver, who operates the nonprofit Badger Run Wildlife Rehabilitation Center. “I’ve also run into people in the feed store buying grain for the deer, which can be fatal.”

She said people believe they’re helping deer by feeding them during the winter, she said.

“When you give them apples, carrots, alfalfa and grain, their gut cannot handle it,” Diver said. “They get something very similar to colic.”

Tom Collom, district wildlife biologist with the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, agreed.

He said deer have complex digestive tracts that depend on proper levels of vitamins, minerals and bacteria to digest food.

“If they are subjected to a quick change in diet it takes their system quite a while to change that bacteria makeup to be able to digest that food,” Collom said. “It sets the stage where animals can starve to death on a full stomach.”

A rapid change in diet actually inhibits the deer’s ability to use the food they take in, he said.

Collom said feeding wildlife other than birds is against the law in the city of Klamath Falls under an ordinance approved in the 1990s.

Diver said she’s trying to spread the word that feeding deer might end up killing them.

“Sometimes it’s accidental,” Diver said. “The deer are getting into people’s hay barns where they’ve got it stashed for their horses.

“But you can also walk into feed stores and find people buying sacks of grain and things with the intent of feeding the deer because they feel sorry for them.”

AND.....
http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/winter_feeding/wildlife.html



If you read this you will see they are talking about feeding throughout the winter....not feeding for a few weeks then when the season is over....no more free food.
Also, I would imagine it would be different if the deer were near naturally occurring agricultural fields, not in heavily forested areas with no supplimental feed.

[huntnnw]

everything I have read on feeding deer, is it is fatal or does nothing to benefit them when they are already in starving mode. Most of the people baiting here are thru the summer and fall

[buck man]

 
I guess its time to come out of hiding and let the lead fly. I love reading the posts so I guess I will post my first. To respond to mater post on feeding the deer and the K-falls or study those are all mule deer and the biologist is correct when stating that the deer couldn't assimilate the feed. Whitetails and mulies may be related and even eat similar food but whitetails will and almost always adapt go a new food source very rapidly. I happen to feed deer all winter and have for 7 years now and my "local" herd has grown from about a.dozen animals to a little over thirty with a buck to doe ratio of about 2.5 to 1. I realize not everyone can do what I do for the deer but winter mortality in my area is nill and we have great rut action just like its supposed to be. I only manage about three hundred acres with several pieces of state around me so not only do I benefit during bow season but other hunters on the sate land do to. I must say that alot of the posts don't bold water in my humble opinion but alot do. I must echo what many have said in the past though is we are all hunters and must put our differences aside cause if we don't we will soon lose all our hunting privileges.

[huntnnw]

feeding whitetails smack in the middle of a bad winter is too late. Read what happened in MI years ago, spent millions to feed the deer during one of their worst winters ever, thousands of deer died with full bellys of alfalfa. When deer get to the point of starvation, enzymes in their stomachs change to ba able digest woody browse things otherwise they would never eat, spring and summer.. u introduce leafy green alfalfa and they cant break it down, bloat and die

[buck man]

feeding whitetails smack in the middle of a bad winter is too late. Read what happened in MI years ago, spent millions to feed the deer during one of their worst winters ever, thousands of deer died with full bellys of alfalfa. When deer get to the point of starvation, enzymes in their stomachs change to ba able digest woody browse things otherwise they would never eat, spring and summer.. u introduce leafy green alfalfa and they cant break it down, bloat and die

my point exactly. I feed all winter and don't stop untill the deer quit coming to the feed sometime in march. That MI fiasco was sad though. UT had a similar experience also years ago. As far as baits go they are not out usually long enough to do any harm.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Posted by: BeeMan

And I quite frankly don't see any evidence that it is detrimental to heard health, in fact I see it the exact opposite.  Baiting is the only hunting method that I know of that actually gives something beneficial back to the very animals we are targeting. You cant tell me that alfalfa, corn, grain, mineral blocks etc... don't boost whitetail health and increase their survival rates going into winter. The deer obviously recognize this as well, otherwise they wouldn't show any interest in the baits. They go to the baits because they recognize it as a great food source, just as they recognize alfalfa fields etc.. as a great food source and they utilize them all year long. Any given bait can have as many as 20-40 deer coming in on a regular basis, of these only 1 (and in many cases none) are killed and the rest reap the benefits of free food and fatter bellies.  Yes it alters their natural feeding habits, (temporarily!) As soon as the baits are gone they go right back to their old patterns, habits and wintering areas! (fatter and happier i might add.) These animals have survived all that nature has thrown at them and thrived for thousands of years and I don't think that a few bails of hay put out for them to eat a few weeks out of each year has any negative impact on their future prospects of survival.  

I'm not knocking the practice baiting....but here's an fyi.


January 9, 2008

KLAMATH FALLS (AP) — Humans who feel sorry for the deer in the winter can do more harm by feeding them, say some wildlife experts.

Six deer found dead in the Klamath Falls area recently probably died because they were fed an improper diet by humans, officials say.

“Looking at some stomach contents, I’m seeing grain and alfalfa and things they’re not supposed to be eating this time of year,” said Liz Diver, who operates the nonprofit Badger Run Wildlife Rehabilitation Center. “I’ve also run into people in the feed store buying grain for the deer, which can be fatal.”

She said people believe they’re helping deer by feeding them during the winter, she said.

“When you give them apples, carrots, alfalfa and grain, their gut cannot handle it,” Diver said. “They get something very similar to colic.”

Tom Collom, district wildlife biologist with the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, agreed.

He said deer have complex digestive tracts that depend on proper levels of vitamins, minerals and bacteria to digest food.

“If they are subjected to a quick change in diet it takes their system quite a while to change that bacteria makeup to be able to digest that food,” Collom said. “It sets the stage where animals can starve to death on a full stomach.”

A rapid change in diet actually inhibits the deer’s ability to use the food they take in, he said.

Collom said feeding wildlife other than birds is against the law in the city of Klamath Falls under an ordinance approved in the 1990s.

Diver said she’s trying to spread the word that feeding deer might end up killing them.

“Sometimes it’s accidental,” Diver said. “The deer are getting into people’s hay barns where they’ve got it stashed for their horses.

“But you can also walk into feed stores and find people buying sacks of grain and things with the intent of feeding the deer because they feel sorry for them.”

AND.....
http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/winter_feeding/wildlife.html



If you read this you will see they are talking about feeding throughout the winter....not feeding for a few weeks then when the season is over....no more free food.
Also, I would imagine it would be different if the deer were near naturally occurring agricultural fields, not in heavily forested areas with no supplimental feed.

This is the strongest biological argument against baiting. The biological arguments are really the only reason we should end baiting at all. However if we are going to end baiting for these reasons then we must stop the state sanctioned feedings for the exact same reasons because it is worse for the animals than baiting during the hunting seasons. I will explain.

It is the change in diet that is the killer. Deer are ruminants, they have four stomachs with microbes that are great at breaking down browse (woody vegetation). When a deer eats things like alfalfa in the late summer they acquire specifically adapted microbes to digest a specific type of food. When they eat foods that are not part of their diet the microbes will not be present to help in digestion. If they are provided a diet they cannot digest they can starve to death with a full stomach.

The case in Oregon is a perfect example of that. It is in January. The weather is crappy. People feel bad and think they are helping out the deer so they throw a buffet of foods at them that the deer have not been eating. (the state does this to with it's emergency feeding) As a result the deer can't digest it and they starve to death. You see the feed was provided at a time when the animals have been feeding on low quality browse for many weeks. Suddenly they are provided an easy and high quality food source. They eat it but they cannot digest it.

Here is the scenario of baiting for hunting here in WA. You have your serious baiters and your not so serious baiters. Both sometimes do things that are bad for the deer.

First the not so serious baiters:

The bad thing I have noticed about the not so serious baiters is that they will wait until the deer are on a low quality diet, the snow flies, the weather turns to crap and they will throw some bait out because it's a great time to kill an animal over a bait. Obviously this ends up being the same scenario as described in the article. The good thing about this is that it is highly unlikely to kill a deer if a guy throws one or two bags of corn or alfalfa on the ground. There really isn't enough feed there for that to be the animals primary diet for very long and make any huge changes...but it isn't good for them because it will disrupt their digestive tracks going on and off bait.

With the serious baiters you have two kinds.
1. The guys that bait year round... This is probably the best of all scenarios. If the deer can keep a consistent diet they will have the microbes to handle what they need to and shouldn't run into too many issues.

2. The guys that bait from spring/summer until the last day of the season or until the antlers drop. When you stop feeding them at antler drop the deer can run into issues because you suddenly cut off their food supply and they have to depend on low quality browse in the dead of winter...not good. The same can be said for stopping baiting at the end of the season in some cases depending on weather that year. I do think it is best to wean the animals off the bait. I think electronic feeders can be a safe way to limit what the animals get and not have as much of an impact on their digestive tracks.

The animals shouldn't have much of and issue if baiting is allowed in early season but in late season I can see why some guidelines or limitations could be called for in favor of the health of the herd.

I definitely do not think that baiting should be completely made illegal. There are many other things that happen that are much worse for the health of the herd than baiting. If we are going to address baiting we need to address those other things first or in addition to.