Yellowstone is Dead

[wolfbait]

Thank you, SpotandStalk

[Special T]

I think a good documentary is the best way to get the info out.. It takes a lot of effort to get it done right but once you do the information can and will spread like wildfire... Seeing is believing for 99% of people, so if the argument is good, facts are there the persuasion should be aw-some.. I look forward to the full documentarty..

[tlbradford]

luvtohunt.  DNA is a direct match from the native species that were here, and the reintroduced wolves.  However, sub-species evolved based on geography.  This is the difference in the two strains of wolves.  One is larger, suited to extreme temperatures, and the taking of larger prey.  Native species were about 1/2 the size.

Much like those N Dakota 300 lb whitetails, compared to our 150 lb whitetails.

[Machias]

Much like those N Dakota 300 lb whitetails, compared to our 150 lb whitetails.

Hmmm now there's a introduction I might get behind. 

[wolfbait]

Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer

Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer

[wolfbait]

luvtohunt.  DNA is a direct match from the native species that were here, and the reintroduced wolves.  However, sub-species evolved based on geography.  This is the difference in the two strains of wolves.  One is larger, suited to extreme temperatures, and the taking of larger prey.  Native species were about 1/2 the size.

Much like those N Dakota 300 lb whitetails, compared to our 150 lb whitetails.

That is a perfect example Tlbradford, and still the USFWS had to cheat to get these wolves into this country.

[luvtohnt]

tlbradford, I do understand that but in order to comply with the ESA where else could the wolves have been brought from?

I am still trying to get ahold of a copy of the Young and Goldman book. Found one on ebay but I don't want to pay 16.00 for a book from 1944!!

Brandon

[wolfbait]

This is what happens when WDFW released wolves on the valley floor in the spring, these wolves didn't know where to go, they hung on the valley floor all summer. Pictures of these wild wolves in town, and in peoples yards. Winter came along and they dispersed.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=147884918595655&set=o.129344620416761&theater

[tlbradford]

tlbradford, I do understand that but in order to comply with the ESA where else could the wolves have been brought from?

I am still trying to get ahold of a copy of the Young and Goldman book. Found one on ebay but I don't want to pay 16.00 for a book from 1944!!

Brandon

I can't answer that question.  I don't know where there was a pack similar to what we had here, if any. 

[wolfbait]

There was no need for an introduction of any wolves our native wolves were on the come back, this has been proven time and time again.

[Special T]

Luvtohunt I remember a thread a while back comparing how the state writes rules for sub species of Salmon... I'm not an angler so I don't remember exactly what the rule, (proposed?) was... That said, if the state find that it is important to make law/rules regarding sub species to limit fishing, wouldn't that same kind of logic REQUIRE you to re-introduce the same Sub-Species??? Using THEIR  same logic, you should be able to reintroduce  salmon from the most available stream to any in need.... OR We should be able to retain hatchery fish AND wild fish, because sub species are unimportant.. Maybe someone remembers the particulars of the comparison...

I have a big problem with government because they tend to use opposing logic whenever it fits their needs... If we use opposing logic they will bust us so hard we cry for mercy...

[Machias]

I watch this documentary and I have a couple of thoughts.  As a hunter I get it, I watch this video and I'm outraged and heatbroken and fearful for the future.  But hopefully I'm not the target audience, because I'm already on board.  I believe this documentary and I realize I only saw parts of it, but it will do very little to the people we need to convince the most and that is a big part of the nonhunting public.  It won't do a thing for the wolf zealots, but they are a minority, but I'm afraid it will do very little to sway public opinion.  Maybe the whole documentary will do a better job of that.  For the minions out there to say Yellowstone is dead, while your showing a herd of elk doesn't help.  Have you seen the documentaries done for the Animal Planet, they show coyote after coyote being shot while the commentators go on about wolves being killed.  The public is ignorant and seeing a herd of elk, no matter how small will make folks go, what you mean, I see elk.  What are those hunters doing crying about a few elk.  I'm not trying to be critical, just not sure this, at least what I just watched, will convince very many folks who are not already on board with us. 

[TeacherMan]

It was an okay video, one thing I look at in any video when I watch it is bias and opinion. With that being said there was some really good facts stated and some points on population dynamics that I would love to see the studies on. I don't want to come across as a wolf lover by any means, I trap them up in AK. I guess I wont go off an a tangent in that direction, I just wasn't really impressed from a science perspective.

for those of you debating the size of the wolves in Washington to the wolves that have been reintroduced from BC. From what I have been able to find in my studies and teachings they do have the same DNA, so they are the same species but just because something has the same DNA doesn't make it identical. One rule I like to teach and talk about in my ecology classes in Bergmann's Rule, this in general just states that the farther north you go the larger animals of the same species or similar species become. As stated earlier think of whitetail deer in Texas and in Alberta, they are very different in size. Up until about 10 years ago scientists use to think there was over 30 sub species of whitetail deer but with modern science and gentics we have found that is incorrect and have been able to narrow that down to just a couple and those are so close its even in question. Another cool example that I have just become aware of is snowshoe hares, when I lived in WA a 3 pound bunny was common, this year on my trapline in south central Alaska they have been averaging around 5-6 pounds. I have been told the snowshoes on the north slope average 8-10 pounds and 12 pounders are common!!! Talk about prehistoric! So I guess with that in conclusion to get rid of the wolves in WA we just need to introduce North Slope snowshoe and they will counterbalance the wolf population but still wipe out the deer herds because they will eat the hillsides void of buck brush.  

[TeacherMan]

I watch this documentary and I have a couple of thoughts.  As a hunter I get it, I watch this video and I'm outraged and heatbroken and fearful for the future.  But hopefully I'm not the target audience, because I'm already on board.  I believe this documentary and I realize I only saw parts of it, but it will do very little to the people we need to convince the most and that is a big part of the nonhunting public.  It won't do a thing for the wolf zealots, but they are a minority, but I'm afraid it will do very little to sway public opinion.  Maybe the whole documentary will do a better job of that.  For the minions out there to say Yellowstone is dead, while your showing a herd of elk doesn't help.  Have you seen the documentaries done for the Animal Planet, they show coyote after coyote being shot while the commentators go on about wolves being killed.  The public is ignorant and seeing a herd of elk, no matter how small will make folks go, what you mean, I see elk.  What are those hunters doing crying about a few elk.  I'm not trying to be critical, just not sure this, at least what I just watched, will convince very many folks who are not already on board with us. 

those are very good points  I totally agree

[wolfbait]

Legalistic Rulings Jeopardize Wolves and the Endangered Species Act
-- International Wolf Magazine, Winter 2010, 12/29/2010

Recent rulings by courts in both the Upper Midwest and the Northern Rockies regarding wolf recovery in those areas have resulted in widespread public concern. The rulings in both cases placed the wolf back on the Endangered Species List but were based on legal technicalities, not biological realities. The biological realities are wolf populations in most wolf recovery states are from 2 to 10 times greater than government recovery plans require for delisting. Wolf numbers reached official recovery levels in the Upper Midwest in 1995 and in the Northern Rockies by 2002. The U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service began attempting to delist wolves in the Midwest in 2006 and in the Northern Rockies in 2008. In each case, lawsuits resulted in overturning the delisting and mandated wolves be placed back on the Endangered Species List.

International Wolf sought opinions about the court rulings and the resulting public backlash from four noted wolf biologists who have been directly involved with wolf recovery for many years: Dr. L. David Mech, a senior scientist with the U. S. Geological Survey and an adjunct professor at the University of Minnesota, who has studied wolves and wolf management for over 50 years; Dr. Rolf O. Peterson, professor at Michigan Technological University, who has studied wolves for 40 years; Dr. Robert R. Ream, a retired professor at the University of Montana, who has studied wolves for 15 years; and Mr. Jim Hammill, retired wildlife biologist with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, who has studied wolves and wolf management for 20 years.

IW: How long have you been involved with wolf recovery and what is your involvement?

Mech: Since the early 1970s, I have been a member of wolf recovery teams for the Midwest, Northern Rockies, and Mexican wolf populations and have helped develop these recovery plans.

Peterson: I have chaired the wolf recovery team for the Midwest population since 1996.
Ream: As a University of Montana professor, I studied wolves when they began naturally recovering in Montana, and I was a member of the Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery Team from 1974 to 1988. I now chair the Commission on Fish, Wildlife and Parks for Montana.

Hammill: I was a wolf biologist for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources while wolves recovered in Michigan and Wisconsin and have been a member of the recovery team for wolves in the Midwest since 1996.


IW: What are your concerns about the recent court rulings on wolf delisting?

Mech: I fear general public attitudes about wolves are reverting toward the negative. Since the early 1970s when wolves were the symbols of endangered species, public attitudes tended to be sympathetic toward wolves. Now attitudes are beginning to shift more toward the negative. This change was recently documented in an analysis of media pieces about wolves.

Peterson: People tend to tolerate wolves more when they know conflicts with wolves can be managed, particularly depredations on livestock and pets. The on-again/off-again delisting of wolves and the consequent alternating state responsibility for wolf management has greatly confused and frustrated the public. Options for reducing conflict are particularly limited in Wisconsin and Michigan, where wolves cannot be legally killed following depredation even by federal agents.

Hammill: In Michigan, we have seen a strong negative change in public acceptance of wolves. Once wolves enjoyed very strong support, even among hunters. However, since technicalities in the Endangered Species Act have been used to keep wolves from rightfully being delisted, support has eroded, and now wolves are being killed illegally across their range here. Michigan just experienced its first decline in wolf numbers since wolves reappeared in 1989.

Ream: Much of the public in the West has also lost respect for the Endangered Species Act. Ranchers, landowners, guides and hunters are fed up with everyone associated with wolf restoration, recovery and management. They tolerated, and many supported, wolf recovery for years as the federal government changed its recovery requirements from 10 packs per state to 15 packs each and then flip-flopped on whether the Wyoming wolf management plan was adequate or not. Now the latest court ruling relisting wolves was the last straw, and illegal killing of wolves will prevail. Folks are so upset that senators and representatives in our area are preparing legislation to change the Endangered Species Act and to delist the wolf legislatively. That could start a whole trend to unravel the law.


IW: We think it’s important for our readers to keep abreast of the back-lash described here by four veterans of wolf recovery and the threat it represents to wolves and the Endangered Species Act. Because events are moving quickly, we urge every-one to stay informed on the subject by regularly checking the News and Events section on our Web site, www.wolf.org.


Wolf numbers reached official recovery levels in the Upper Midwest in 1995 and in the Northern Rockies by 2002.

 http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/live_news_detail.asp?id=5896