Skagit county

[Wacenturion]

Some people will never learn.

Meaning.........just how many game farm experiments with tame birds does it take in this country before we do it the right way.  The literature is loaded with failures.  When game farm releases were abandoned in the 50's-60's and states started to experiment with live trapping and relocation, populations started to take hold and expand, eventually leading to one of the biggest success stories in wildlife management in the past 30 years, as evidenced by nationwide populations as they are today.

But you already knew that..

[grundy53]

I just wish they would release some more wild easterns in sw Washington. Like sticknstring said they need the genetic diversity.

[Wacenturion]

With the WDFW basically giving up on the Turkeys here in Western Washington, I see nothing wrong with someone else footing the bill for planting them.
As far as my understanding, the first plants in Washington were from pen raised birds, and were unsuccessful, which is why they began using "wild captured" birds.
but if the tribes want to gamble with a lousy bet, who am I to criticize ?
But as far as I understand it, 170 captive bred birds can be purchased for a couple hundred dollars, and "Wild Captured" birds run over $75 APEICE, so...
Please release a few hundred and we shall see how many survive....
Genetics aside, if one or two breeders make it, in a few generations, there might be some to be hunted in that area, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, as long as it is "tribal" money what do we care ?
they are not going to introduce any diseases to the wild Turkeys already in the area, are they ?

 Stikn......let me explain it this way.  You have put in the time and effort to know how to hunt western Washington Easterns.  As you know I have followed you episodes over the past couple years trying to help where I could.  Here is my simpliest comparison of these tribal birds and what they equate to...........

Wild western Washington Easterns........tough, ghosts, got to believe, probably the toughest turkey to take in United States.

Game Farm Tualip easterns.......spot birds...walk within range...shoot. 

I think you get my drift. 

[Wacenturion]

I just wish they would release some more wild easterns in sw Washington. Like sticknstring said they need the genetic diversity.

I agree completely.  Should have planted a whole lot more, and should still be planting.  Lots of areas in western Washington to fill in.  But understand two things were working against it.

First....WDFW reorganization in 1999 essentially killed the turkey introduction program.  Meaning the idiots in Wildlife Management now had control.  Those are the same folks as an example that brought you the wonderful new innovative permit system we now have.  Enough said....

Second...The NWTF parent organization in Edgefield, South Carolina, positioned themselves as middle man brokers so to speak during the mid 90's.  What these meant was that a price was put on the cost of trapping the different subspecies of turkeys.  Merriam's and Rio's were $100 a bird with shipping cost on top of that, and Easterns were $500 a bird, also without shipping.  The high cost of Easterns was because of smaller flock size and their inherent nature makes them much more difficult to trap.

Washington chapters had to in essence borrow the money and pay it back.  The NWTF even charged administrative fees (telephone calls etc) on top of that and interest on the money.  Truth be know....it's all about the money.

Really sad thing is before the NWTF set themselves up as a broker, states readily traded birds for other species or for the most part sent birds free of charge, with the exception of shipping costs.  An example of state wildlife agencies helping each other.

We could have had many more Easterns during the mid to late 90's if those greedy car salesmen at the NWTF had stayed the hell out of the the Washington State turkey business.  You can take that to the bank!

[Wacenturion]

Besides the fact all the time and money which went into releasing birds in Arlington ( pilchuck tree farm ) are in lock down do to new owners of the property who forbid hunting on there land ... sweeeet !

Never could figure why all that time and money was spent on that when the tree farm and surrounding private land has been closed to hunting for years.  Now the locals complain about them crapping in their yard.

As Bowhunter has already pointed out, there was an agreement in place between Pilchuck and WDFW.  Things change over time.  We don't have control over that.  However birds exist on and adjacent to Pilchuck and will hopefully continue to expand over the years.  That is the real benefit.  With a little luck you may someday have an opportunity at hunting birds in that area.

For what it's worth I'm sure the opportunity already exists on adjacent lands that one could access now if they were willing to put in the time and effort.  Be warned....not easy even where birds do exist in Thurston, Cowlitz, Pacific,and Lewis counties as an example.   

[Wacenturion]

Sounds like a screwed up deal to me.. but hopefully they will expand onto huntable property. Land in western wash is shrinking so fast that I'm not keeping my hopes up. I know of four other spots where the turkeys are thriving, and all four spots closed to hunting forever.
Drove through Tulalip reservation the other day 20 turkeys standing in the middle of the road almost plowed them over, looks like the indians will have some good hunting if they can keep them off the busy hiway.

I know its a just matter of semantics, but what you should have said was........

"looks like the Indians will have some good harvesting if they can keep them off the busy highway."

Kind of like harvesting broccoli....not real difficult.

[BOWHUNTER45]

HEY CHECK THIS OUT !!! tore the whole fricken house apart to find some but here is the release we done on Pilchuck , damn I thought I had a few better ones but something is better than nothen ... check out my boys , they are now 16 and 17 .. memories I will never forget !!!!

[Special T]

Nice stern look of your oldest! must not have liked pictures...

[BOWHUNTER45]

Releasing Easterns in western Washington ...

[BOWHUNTER45]

GOBBLE GOBBLE

[BOWHUNTER45]

fly fly fly away .....

[BOWHUNTER45]

Of course I had to be the one taking the dang pictures !!!!!! 

[BOWHUNTER45]

O.K Already the last one !!! hope you enjoyed them ... I had to dig deep threw thousands of pictures !!!

[BOWHUNTER45]

I just have to post one more since this is about island birds and this is from 1996 on Friday harbor .. state land !!! When I first heard of turkeys on the island it was my nature of being a serious turkey hunter from the east coast ( I just had to go )) hahahahaha SORRY ABOUT THAT !!!!!!   HAVE TO ADMIT THIS IS A COOL PICTURE ....

[Wacenturion]

The main problem I see is if the trend that has been established here in SW Washington, the birds get planted, and several years of large populations, flocks expanding etc..
Now there are scattered small flocks spread out and seems like I see more racoon and coyote sign than anything (became a predator hunter more than a turkey hunter)
I am not a biologist, but I do know that in-breeding can be as detrimental as introduction of inferior genetics, diseases, etc...
According to my resources (internet) a stable population CAN expand an average of 5 miles a year, but that would probably require the addition of new blood to the gene pool, to improve genetic diversity and the overall health of the whole flock.
It is not due to over harvesting that you rarely see the Turkeys here in their origional release areas, it is stagnation and predation.
...
The WDFW has made the statement...

Northwest Population Management Unit (PMU P40)
Various releases since 1925 have failed to establish populations on the mainland or the
San Juan Islands. Most releases utilized pen-raised stock, were limited in number, and
were widely scattered. Between 1998 and 2000, 38 turkeys were introduced into the
Pilchuck Tree Farm (Snohomish County). While occasional sightings of one or two
birds have been reported as far as five miles away, suggesting the birds have
reproduced to some degree, populations remain very low.

Were the 38 Birds released on Pilchuck pen raised ? You said they were "True Easterns", but where did they come from ?

Yes they were wild, as Bowhunter has already mentioned, they were from Iowa.  Wild trapped in the field and shipped out here the following day.  Released within a couple days of arrival after disease testing was completed.

As far as not seeing birds on original sites....easy answer.  The habitat changes relatively quick in western Washington due to our climate.  Areas where I routinely take Easterns out of are usually good for just a few short years and then they for the most part absent of sign.  However, they were not far away.  They just relocated into areas that mimicked where they had been for a few years previous...age of reprod., older timber borders etc.  Problem was you had a 360 degree challenge to find them again...lol. 

When all the Easterns were released from the mid 80's on, their genetic viability was ensured as much as possible with mixing of existing releases as well as future ones.  An example would be the mixing of say Iowa birds prior to release with gobblers and hens from different counties as one example.  Mixing of hens was also done so family groups were not entirely kept in tact. 

In addition, new stocks in successive years were planted on top of existing bird to add to the gene pool...i.e.  Missouri birds released in areas of Pennsylvania birds, Iowa birds on top of both Missouri and Pa. bird...and so forth over the years.

So in summary, our Easterns are doing just fine.  The expansion of small groups, which by the way is the nature of the subspecies, will continue to add genetic strength overall.  If you look in this year's regulations at the Estimated Spring Turkey Harvest, it will illustrate my point.  The last releases were made in 2000 I believe.  The harvest in area P50 Southwest slowly climbed from 26 in 1996 then up in the 40's and 50's until 2006 when it was 77.  The 2009  harvest was 65, the second highest total in the 14 year span, and nine years after the last releases.

Area P40 Northwest shows a low harvest from 1996 to 2001, then after releases on Pilchuck increases are noted.  However most of that increase probably comes from additional pursuit of birds on the islands and perhaps some other local game farm bird release type harvest like around LaConner perhaps or North Bend where another pocket of illegally released birds exist.  Some may very well indeed be some production that was harvested from those wild releases in the Pilchuck area. 

Our Easterns will continue to be the biggest turkey hunting challenge we have in state.  A true trophy that would give the best of the good ol' southern and Midwest turkey experts fits.