Coloring on Merriam's gobblers

[packmule]

I see that a lot of the Merriam's gobblers that have been harvested in NE Washington this year have the "bleach white" tips on the tail feathers, as is commonly attributed to the Merriam's sub-species (and also to the Gould's).  I hunt primarily in the Klickitat area and I'd say that most gobblers we run across are much more "dirty white" or dark cream colored.  I noticed this same color trend in central Idaho where I've hunted as well, few snow white tipped gobblers 

1. What proportion of gobbler's in the NE do you think have the snow white tips?

2.  Do you think the lack of snow white tips in areas I've hunted is indicative of not having full-blooded Merriam's, or just a range of colors within the sub-species?

[turkeydancer]

 
Per a wildlife biologist friend, a turkeys coloration does change during differnt parts of the year based on his diet at that time.  But since the state started releasing Rios in some area like Douglas Falls then switched to Merriams in the NE, and the fact that they do not stop at some artificial and arbitrary "line in the sand", we know that cross-breeding does occur ... however it is most likely the result of that birds particular diet. He further stated that  the only way to truly tell if a turkey is a product of cross breeding is an expensive genetics test. This is why the state basically defines the subspecies by county of harvest versus coloration.  So if you harvest a thunder chicken in the NE, it's a Merriam.

[BPturkeys]

I can only agree with what Tdancer's friend said. It is really quite silly to declare a turkey a certain sub-species based upon the location that it was living. Washington has planted three subspecies throughout state and they crossbred in almost all locations. Rio/Merriam crossbreed will have a variety of colorings and it is this coloring variations that are leading to the misunderstanding of what the actual subspecies of your harvested bird is. Very few locations in the West that have been transplanting birds have any real pure blood birds within their population.
Not to really change the subject to much, but I think this use of location to identify a bird calls into question this "Washington Slam" that I hear about all the time. It kind of goes like this..."Well I shot my Merriams up around Hunters then I had to travel clear down to Seven Bays to harvest the Rio, now all I need to do is head back home to Napavine for the Eastern...trouble is, now Iam home, I can't tell the birds apart"...yup, that's a Slam...yeah, right

[Wacenturion]

I can only agree with what Tdancer's friend said. It is really quite silly to declare a turkey a certain sub-species based upon the location that it was living. Washington has planted three subspecies throughout state and they crossbred in almost all locations. Rio/Merriam crossbreed will have a variety of colorings and it is this coloring variations that are leading to the misunderstanding of what the actual subspecies of your harvested bird is. Very few locations in the West that have been transplanting birds have any real pure blood birds within their population.
Not to really change the subject to much, but I think this use of location to identify a bird calls into question this "Washington Slam" that I hear about all the time. It kind of goes like this..."Well I shot my Merriams up around Hunters then I had to travel clear down to Seven Bays to harvest the Rio, now all I need to do is head back home to Napavine for the Eastern...trouble is, now Iam home, I can't tell the birds apart"...yup, that's a Slam...yeah, right

You sure know how to rain on someone's parade don't ya.  Your statement.....

"Washington has planted three subspecies throughout state and they crossbred in almost all locations."

is grossly inaccurate.  You're going to tell me Merriams or Rio's have invaded Pacific, Thurston or Mason county?  Yeah there is overlap no doubt in the NE, and probably overlap to a lesser extent in the SE considering Idaho planted Merriams in the Lewiston area vs Rio's in Asotin, Garfield, Columbia and Walla Walla counties in Washington.  Believe Oregon south of the line was Rio's since everything Oregon was Rio's pretty much.

You also said.

"Very few locations in the West that have been transplanting birds have any real pure blood birds within their population."

That too is baloney.

If you think the Washington Slam is a joke, then fine you're welcome to your opinion.   However it sounds more like Utah turkey envy to me. 

"trouble is, now Iam home, I can't tell the birds apart"...yup, that's a Slam...yeah, right"

Maybe you can't tell them apart....but some of us can. 

Save you negativity for your Utah forums...it's not needed here.

 

[BPturkeys]

I guess I am not saying that the "Washington Slam" program is a joke, anybody that can harvest three turkeys probably deserves a pin. I guess it's the use of the term "Slam" I kind of don't like, it is kind of misleading in my mind. You can not deny that a person can get his pin and in all reality NOT harvest three different sub-species of turkey. Also, yes, there are most likely small pockets of pure blood turkeys in Washington, but dang, you just can't go calling a bird a certain sub-species cause he lives on one side of the Spokane river and his cousin on the other side a different sub-species can you, really? oh, and about the Utah turkey envy...na...I been shooting your damn Washington turkeys non-stop(during the legal season only) since 1995...I don't envy them, I eat um

[oldleclercrd]

My Merriams gobbler from friday the 13th. Its pretty white!

[packmule]

Per a wildlife biologist friend, a turkeys coloration does change during differnt parts of the year based on his diet at that time.  But since the state started releasing Rios in some area like Douglas Falls then switched to Merriams in the NE, and the fact that they do not stop at some artificial and arbitrary "line in the sand", we know that cross-breeding does occur ... however it is most likely the result of that birds particular diet. He further stated that  the only way to truly tell if a turkey is a product of cross breeding is an expensive genetics test. This is why the state basically defines the subspecies by county of harvest versus coloration.  So if you harvest a thunder chicken in the NE, it's a Merriam.

Turkeydancer,

The diet thing makes sense, I hadn't thought about that one.  Thanks for the information. . .does anyone know what diet items or nutrients contribute to the white vs dark cream color in Merriams?

My Merriams gobbler from friday the 13th. Its pretty white!

Definitely a beautiful white gobbler!

[oldleclercrd]

Yeah you can buy Rios online. I wonder if anyone on this site has raised them and let em go. Would they make it up north? I thought they were more desert birds.

[goducks]

I think the rain has washed them as white as snow. 

[yelp]

Yeah you can buy Rios online. I wonder if anyone on this site has raised them and let em go. Would they make it up north? I thought they were more desert birds.

   THis is an old topic..game farm stock sucks!  Become problem birds not wild strain.  Also not tested for diseases.

[yelp]

The Washington slam originally was about three seperate subspecies..If you hunted back in the day or were involved on where the birds came from initially you would see that we have wild turkeys from South Dakota, Texas, Iowa and Missouri, etc.  Wild trapped caught in other states and brought into our state to try and grow a program that would have three seperate subspecies.  Rio Grande turkeys are very socialistic and have a different mannerisms than Easterns.  Easterns are more solice and nomadic.  Merriams are the most productive because we have a lot of mountian/pine habitat.  YEs there are some hybridized areas, but the Easterns are secluded and most Merriams and Rio Grande occupy the Eastern part of the state in similar areas.  These areas that are occupied by both is usually a result of a convergance of habitats.  Years ago there was a seperate county tag  to keep hunters in specific  areas to allow even harvest.  Now it is two birds in Eastern Washington. Current management has made decisions that haven't helped keep the WA Slam unique.  Many hunters that go out have no historical info on where seperate subspecies exist in WA.  As populations grew that available habitat begans to fill with wild turkeys and then we had som hybrid areas.  THe intention wasn't for this to happen,  But the biologists relalized Merriams were hardier in the mountain areas of the state.  The Rio Grande the more arid, etc.   The one thing I have observed is how adaptable some wild turkeys have become.  Roosting habitat for example comes in many shapes and forms..no front porches don't count.  I am talking wild turkeys.  I see turkeys in very arid parts of the state now roosting in small isolated pockest of pine, russian olive, cotton wood, etc. Washington state also has a lot of Riparian habitat that is used by wild turkeys to expand populations.  Many drainages ares used every year to get from wintereing areas to nesting areas., etc.  The WA slam is still unique IMO. If you read turkey studies there are different color phases within all subspecies of wild turkeys.  The difference with Merriams and Rios isn't necessarily the color it is the large white band on the back of the turkey..it is thicker/wider than Rio grande.  I have shot tan Merriams.  A lot of hard work by volunteer brought these wild birds into a state that has the highest growing human populations in the west.  We are losing lots of places to hunt.  I am just grateful that I was a part of such and effort .  I got a WA slam in 1998 and I can tell you that we still have seperate subspecies in this state.  I also applaud the biologists that made the case for these releases.  The habitat is so unique in Washington that we can support three huntable populations..not many states can say that.  Anyways My son will be hunting them this next year and I hope I can share this success with him.  Whether or not you agree with me..isn't the point we should take pride in the opportunities that we have..they may not be here tommorrow nor will you.

[BPturkeys]

Thanks Yelp, very well said. I too would like to congratulate the Washington State Wildlife department for the great job they have done with the turkeys in your state. And I apologize if it sounded as if I was ridiculing your Washington Slam Program, it is what it is and certainly any hunter that qualifies deserves the pin. Its a fun thing and does in a way highlight the success of the Washington Turkey program. 

[packmule]

If you read turkey studies there are different color phases within all subspecies of wild turkeys.  The difference with Merriams and Rios isn't necessarily the color it is the large white band on the back of the turkey..it is thicker/wider than Rio grande.

Yelp,

Good information.  Do you have any citations of studies or books that provide this information.  I have a lot of turkey hunting books that generalize color patterns of the different species.  I'd be interested to know other sources you refer to, to further research this issue.  Also, to be clear, I like all of our turkeys regardless of their color or genetic status.  I'm just interested in getting more information about the color patterns.

In terms of turkey hunting in our state, I have a close friend in northern Missouri who is an avid turkey hunter and he would kill to have the turkey hunting opportunities we are enjoying here right now.  Their population has really dropped during the past couple of seasons and we have ALOT of public land to chase 3 species of wild turkeys.