Regulation Changes

[baldopepper]

Guess this is just a follow up to Jkeen33's post on Jake numbers, but here are a few changes I'd like to see (this obivously only pertains the pertient units involved)

1)  Cut the spring hunt back to May 15th
      We all love that part of the season when the hens are on the nest and
       the Toms are still looking, but for any of us that have been out much
       late in the season, we can also recall flushing nested hens off their
       nests.  Most years this might not be a big problem, but on wet cold
       springs like this, I suspect it has a major impact on broods. I am also
       not sure that 6 weeks of chasing and disriputing during the breeding
       season is a wise idea when populations seem to be dropping.
2)  Replace the fall 2 bird either sex hunt with a 1 bird bearded bird only
     hunt.
     This is basically'sjust a "control hunt" that was implemented when land-
      owner complaints got to heavy.  I don't think many true turkey
      hunters partake of this hunt anyway , but, from what I've seen, l
      lots of "meat" hunters do.  Personally, I don't think the current
      populatiion justifys it.  I also  think that setting this hunt prior to
      knowing what the spring hatch is, is like setting salmon openings
      prior to knowing what the return is going to be. Many of us would go
      on a fall bearded bird hunt, but have no interest in the hen hunt.
3)  do away completely with the late fall hunt.
     I've found this to almost be more of a harvest than a hunt.  Birds are
     bunched up and usaully highly visible from the road.  Most areas birds
     are so concentrated that it's almost a fraud to say you were actually
     out hunting them.  Additionally, I feel that breaking up these already
     winter stressed flocks and chasing them around can't be doing their
     chances of making it thru the winter any good.  Again, I'm not sure
     current populations warrant it.
These are just my opinions, obviously, but after years of observing it just seems to me that we often wait until the "horses are out of the barn to shut the barn door" in game management.  Just 2 years ago we were givng 1,000 whitetail doe permits in one of these areas, and now decide, in a panic, that we should only take 4 points?   I'd hate to see us let turkeys go the way we have eastside pheasants.   I'm going to contact
WDF in Ollympia and give them my opinion just to appease my own feelings if nothing else.


 

[Big game archer]

I agree. I have definately noticed decreased populations. I think the state really screwed up when they made it possible for one person to shoot four birds during the fall seasons in just Northeast wa.

[Machias]

They did it on purpose and trust me, no one is more tickled pink then the department if indeed numbers are falling!   

[turkeydancer]

And the bonus for them is all the extra tag money with onlly 1/3 going to turkey management ... 1/3 to other upland bird management and 1/3 to the general fund.
 

[JKEEN33]

I could definitely suppot these changes. I personally could go for a no fall hunt. Turkey hunting is something that I have been doing for a while now and have been very successful at. I have been able to take several kids, friends and family members out in the woods and help get them a turkey and let them feel what it's like to have a successful hunt . Having a hunt in WA were someone can go out and be successful on a regular basis is something that is needed to get more new hunters out there. 

[BPturkeys]

Just a couple of points and questions here. The state allows the taking of what, three birds (on the East side)? If these birds are Toms, you are not going to change the overall "yearly" population of birds at all. There will always be plenty of males within a population to breed the hens, hence, the population will stay stable. Now, when you start killing hens, thats a different story, the spring population of birds will decrease proportionally in relation to the number of breeding hens killed. So, your argument that we stop killing hens in the fall is valid and well founded in science if maintenance of a given population level is your ultimate goal.
Now, about the "only meat hunters" will be in the field. The reason a hunter is in the field is not the business of the state and should not be a concern to the other hunter. As long as the meat hunter has a valid permit he should be as welcome in the field as the all-mighty high-minded trophy hunter. 
P.S. what do ya think this is, a pleasure hunt or somethin? (inside joke)

[baldopepper]

What I'm getting at, is that we often only look at the direct mortailty rate of hunting-i.e. actual birds shot, when in fact there is an indirect mortality rate that comes when already stressed game is pushed even harder as a result of hunting.  When you see the large winter flocks out in deep snow (as is often the case on the late fall hunt) from daylight to dark scratching to find enough food to get by, I can't help but think that breaking up those flocks and chasing them around doesnt cause some "indirect" deaths.  I think the same holds somewhat for the late spring hunt in a year like this where we have hunters in the field in a cold wet spring and the hens are nested.  Taking a page out of the salmon managment book, salmon season and quotas are never set until an estimate on return is established.  We set control hunts for turkeys (and other big game for that matter) in the early spring, well before we have any idea how the survival rate of the newborns is going to go. Having a very low hatch count and combining it with a two hen fall hunt could spell disastor for a population that seems to be in delcine anyway. I'm not opposed to "meat hunters' taking hens when the population needs control, but I'm thinking the poulation doesnt need controlling right now. Agian, I say that right now we have a good, huntable population of birds-I'm not sure why we seem to think we need to lower those numbers .  Why don't we wait until we see what our brood survial rate is and then implement a control hunt if needed.

[BPturkeys]

I'll go along with no late winter hunt period! I agree that we are needlessly stressing the birds in an already stressful time. I will also definitely go along with stopping the hen hunts, period! But I do not think there is any way to regulate the spring male bird hunt and effectively produce more birds overall. There is no weather related stress on adult birds this time of the year and only through controlling the weather can we stop a nasty storm from rolling in and drenching the new hatchlings ( a period of about a week right after they hatch) resulting in unusually high mortality. The last time I checked, we can't even predict the weather, never mind control it. So lets not try and  get to fancy here with a bunch of unproven, feel good regulations when in reality we are only experiencing a normal dip in turkey populations do to wetter than normal spring weather for the last couple of years. Just wait and see, given a couple normal to a-little-on-dry-side spring weather and the birds will be back with a vengeance.

[baldopepper]

Hmmmmm-trying to see where I was advocating a "bunch" of new regulations- I simply said: 1) drop the late fall hunt 2) change the fall hunt to read bearded birds only 3) shorten the spring hunt back to 1 month like it was for many years.  As for new regulations or "control" hunts-wait and see what brood success is before you implement them.  Setting seasons and quotas early in the spring is done strictly for hunters convenience and is not necessarily done in the best interest of species involved.  We open and close salmon seasons and bag limits at the drop of a hat if we see a problem with returns, but we set hunting seasons in early spring and rarely if ever change them even if we know we're having a bad survival rate of the young. I'm just not sure that makes sense.

[Wacenturion]

I too would advocate....NO HEN SEASON.

If you have to have a fall season, then make it the same allowable bird as in the spring....GOBBLERS OR BEADED BIRDS ONLY.....AND ONE ONLY.

As far as the spring....GOBBLERS OR BEARDED BIRDS ONLY as it is now.....but......only one per day.  End the two per day nonsense.  For every hunter who takes two in the same day ethically, I would wager you have 6-10 who don't.  Ever have a group of wired up jakes coming running in on you?  It's called flock shooting with a two bird limit with two guys and several legal birds in front of you.

That does result in indirect mortality...like in carrying pellets in ya as you fly away.  Why is two birds a day any more successful than one.  We're teaching the wrong things guys.

It also fosters hunters staying artificially longer in an area which puts more pressure on that area and available toms.  I agree that there will always be enough Gobblers to breed, but...move on.  Like in the 90's....kill a Merriam, then go to a Rio county for your two birds east.

All these wonderful fall, hen and multiple birds in a day are there for a reason....WDFW wants you to shoot the living piss out of them.  Current managers hate turkeys....period.  It's your resource...speak up and protect it.

baldopepper...... you're right on with your concerns.

[Machias]

 

[BPturkeys]

ok, it seems we all agree on "no more hen hunts, period". We agree on "if" there is a fall hunt it be bearded birds only and the hunt not be too late in the fall. Now I guess my only question is when exactly would you do your spring hatch count and to what season would you apply the numbers? You do realize we are not talking about salmon or deer or elk here. You can not use the same management techniques with upland game that you use for these species...it just does not apply. Birds reproduce and replenish their numbers on a yearly basis and have a tremendously high "normal" morality rate even without hunting. Counting broods or even poults (young birds) will tell you virtually nothing about the bird population in a years time. Perhaps we should base the spring hunting season's regulations on an actual count, but counting the broods of that spring would be counting the wrong birds. The only count that would be of use is the hens that are available for breeding in the spring, so this count would need to take place as late in the winter as possible and still give the biologist time to crunch the numbers and notify the hunters of the upcoming season regulations. In all truth, if you want to base the hunts on some level of population, as with big game, we would need to have a "huntable" bird count just prior to the actual hunt and then base the hunts on last minute closures as with salmon, this seams to be what you are suggesting. Maybe not a "bunch" of regulations but at least a mighty big change in the way we manage turkey hunting.

[JKEEN33]

I could go for a shorter spring hunt, but don't take away my dream of getting two with one shot. Thought I was going to get it this year when I had to mature Toms come in. Could have had it on another hunt where I was just the caller for a friend. I had 5 toms in at once.

I do agree with BP on the weather issue, but killing a bunch of hens in fall and bad weather the last two springs has not helped the turkey population at all.

[baldopepper]

Well BP I think your last sentence kind of summed it up"-big change in the way we manage turkeys".  Unless I misunderdstand, game management's goal is the healthy perpetuation of a species with hunting being used as a tool in that goal. I'm kinda thinking that inconviencing hunters to insure the healthy population of a species is probably ok.  I only use salmon as an example, because for years we worried about "inconviencing"  commercial fishermen, tribes , sportsman, power companies, and farmers and woke up one day to find we had a disaster.  Granted, salmon managment is a lot more complicated, but the point is, we nearly decimated our runs before we realzied we needed to "inconvience" some people to save the species. If we are going to make a mistake in game managment, lets start making the mistakes in favor of the species rather than the hunters, landowners, sporting goods dealers, etc. etc. If we need to wait until we get good brood counts (and the state does do them and obviously they do have an effect on future populations) before we set seasons-so be it. I'm certainly no fan of over regulating, but I've seen the disaster of underregualting (which usually translates to no one paying attention) in the past also.