Wolf Wars have moved to Washington

[grundy53]

The wolf advocates here need to "man-up" and acknowledge that. If you believe we can reach a rational solution with people who have not acted honestly, honorably or, in some cases, rationally, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I mentioned this yesterday...the Neville Chamberlain approach. Appeasement and negotiation has only so much horsepower before there is a confrontation. At some point, responsible people must draw a line and put a stop to the nonsense.

So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously.   

Your argument sounds very reasonable.... There in lies the problem though. The DOW are not reasonable people. If we go your route what will happen is DOW will tell the state what they want to do. Then the state will do it and be able to say with a straight face that they came to this decision with the help and support of hunters. Sound familiar? I don't think we should bend over backwards and let these people stick a knife into our back. If they try to leave us sitting in the corner then we need to get even louder. Don't let them ignore us. Be loud enough that that have no choice but to listen. If this was a fairy tale world I would have no problem with your plan. I would meet them half way. But in reality they won't settle for half and I think any semi intelligent human being can look at Idaho,Montana, and Wyoming and see that. They won't budge. Even when you meet THEIR goals they will just adjust THEIR goals higher. You can't reason with these people....

[Skyvalhunter]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015270440_apwamanagingwolves.html?syndication=rss

[billythekidrock]

The wolf advocates here need to "man-up" and acknowledge that. If you believe we can reach a rational solution with people who have not acted honestly, honorably or, in some cases, rationally, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I mentioned this yesterday...the Neville Chamberlain approach. Appeasement and negotiation has only so much horsepower before there is a confrontation. At some point, responsible people must draw a line and put a stop to the nonsense.

So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously.   

Exactly.
It is happening and we can't stop it so we may as well work towards something in the middle.

[bearpaw]

“The majority of the scientific reviewers agree with NPCA that a higher number of breeding pairs is needed to produce a sustainable wolf population in Washington,” said David G. Graves, the NPCA's Northwest field representative.

According to NPCA officials, some scientists who conducted an independent peer review of the state's DEIS found that its population recommendations are not biologically defensible and will not ensure the ‘reestablishment of a self-sustaining population of gray wolves in Washington.’

Folks here is a perfect example of how the wolfers are using this "self sustaining wolf population argument" to justify that we need 15 or more breeding pairs in Washington.

HERE ARE WOLF FACTS THAT ARE HARD TO IGNORE
The government now considers wolves from Alaska to Wisconsin to Utah as one breed of wolf. FACT
Government data illistrates that wolves are moving back and forth across state and provincial borders. FACT
Government data has shown that in 6 months 1 wolf traveled over 1000 miles across 5 states. FACT
Government DNA testing has shown that Washington wolves are migrating in from Canada and Idaho/Montana. FACT
USFWS has acknowledged that Washington wolves are part of a greater wolf population and delisted the eastern 1/3. FACT
Congress acknowledged that Washington wolves are part of a greater wolf population and delisted the eastern 1/3. FACT
The gray wolf population in North America is estmated by the USFWS at roughly 60,000 animals. FACT
This is far more wolves than is needed for genetic viability according to any popular population model.  FACT


Population Information source is the USFWS:  http://library.fws.gov/pubs3/wolves00.pdf
Population Viability Analysis:  www.cfr.washington.edu/classes.esrm.458/Esc458-6/LECT6.PPT


Evidence shows Washington does not need a selff sustaining wolf population, Washington is already part of a larger self sustaining and growing wolf popualtion.

[Dave Workman]

So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously.   

This may come as something of a shock, but you're probably not being taken seriously now.

Think about this: What would stop the hunting community from filing a preemptive federal lawsuit to REQUIRE the state and feds AND ESPECIALLY the wolf advocacy groups, to adhere to a management plan that sets a threshold of X-number of breeding pairs and that mandates that upon reaching that threshold, the state would be required to open a hunting season on the animals. Period, end of story.

Up to now, the Defenders of Wildlife have been playing court games and getting away with it thanks to what appears to be a sympathetic judge. Ultimately, this issue could end up before the Supreme Court.

 

[Jack Diamond]

  Finally some wisdom rather than rhetoric.

[grundy53]

The wolf advocates here need to "man-up" and acknowledge that. If you believe we can reach a rational solution with people who have not acted honestly, honorably or, in some cases, rationally, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I mentioned this yesterday...the Neville Chamberlain approach. Appeasement and negotiation has only so much horsepower before there is a confrontation. At some point, responsible people must draw a line and put a stop to the nonsense.

So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously.   

Exactly.
It is happening and we can't stop it so we may as well work towards something in the middle.

Do you actually believe DOW will negotiate? Do you think they will meet us in the middle? I'm not that naive. They have proven they will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want. And you guys want to trust them?

[WAcoyotehunter]

So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously.   

This may come as something of a shock, but you're probably not being taken seriously now.

Think about this: What would stop the hunting community from filing a preemptive federal lawsuit to REQUIRE the state and feds AND ESPECIALLY the wolf advocacy groups, to adhere to a management plan that sets a threshold of X-number of breeding pairs and that mandates that upon reaching that threshold, the state would be required to open a hunting season on the animals. Period, end of story.

Up to now, the Defenders of Wildlife have been playing court games and getting away with it thanks to what appears to be a sympathetic judge. Ultimately, this issue could end up before the Supreme Court.

 

That is exactly what mentioned earlier.  I think it's a good idea Dave.  Sticking to that simple solution might be better than making a huge fuss over other topics that are not going to gain any headway with the DFW or with the pro wolf groups.
 
IMO- the parasites and nativity arguments are not going to gain a lot of ground.  I might be wrong, but I think they make hunters look like alarmists and will only deteroiate credibility.  Again, maybe I'm wrong?

[pianoman9701]

To WAcoyotehunter:

"So what are you suggesting hunters do?  If hunters refuse to meet somewhere in the middle we will be left sitting in the corner with a pouty look on our face and our arms crossed while everyone else decides what's going to be done.  If we don't make some type of intelligent engagement we're not going to be taken seriously."

Successful negotiations dictate a strong stance, usually stronger than that for which you are willing to settle. You don't give an inch of your stance. You have to remember that most of these wolf people aren't just for introducing wolves, they're against hunting at all. So by trying to find middle ground (which they won't), you sink deeper into the hole. You can speak respectfully to people and still not give ground. If you believe that wolves are wrong for this state, then that's your stance. If you start out by making concessions, you'll lose even more ground by the end. Arm yourself with information and facts from MT, ID, and WY to call these people onto the carpet. Learn about the parasites. Get real numbers from RMEF and the F&W dept.s of those other states. Most of these hosers are emotional nut jobs with little in the way of real knowledge. When faced with real facts, they just get mad and run away.

[bearpaw]

to go view wolves in the wild would require a discovery pass which is $30
deer bear elk and cougar tag $79.20
Which is more money for the state?
Plus if someone would like to view wolves wouldnt they already be viewing wildlife and have a discovery pass?
Where are after the wolves wipe out the elk population and move onto others they will not sell tags for them.
https://fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/ so you can check the prices yourself

Last numbers I saw indicate that only 3.7% of the state's population (and decreasing) hunt.  If they can sell a discovery pass to 9.77% of the state (roughly 10% of non-hunters) they make the same amount.

I disagree:
The Discover Pass is for access to state lands.

1.  You would have to assume that everyone goes to state land to see wolves.
2.  There is an option for a day pass for $10.
3.  If there is any wildlife watching for wolves, people can go to the National Forest system for free.
4.  History shows that most small towns in Idaho and Montana have seen a decrease in tourist dollars with loss of hunters.

[bearpaw]

Are you kidding? Look back through the posts. Lots of people are talking about taking this into their own hands.

yesterday, a guy by the name of machias said "we need to kill every wolf we see and don't stop until they are all dead". I didn't see his comment on here, so I assume the mods took it off. Extremist attitudes like this won't do the hunter's cause any good. Advocating breaking the law doesn't help anyone's cause.

So robertg following the law, how's that working for Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minn, Wis??

It's working good. Come fall, there will be a hunting season on wolves in Idaho and Montana.

Upon what do you base your comment robertg, history has shown that the wolfers will use the courts to shut down hunting seasons and wolf populations continue to grow, how can you say that won't happen in Washington. 

[bearpaw]

If you simply look at all the arguments the wolfers are using there are holes in all of them. Hunters need to point out all these false statements and go on the offense rather than always being on the defense.

You can not win anything by always being on the defense. 

[seth30]

Attack to defend

[bearpaw]

Attack to defend

 

[Wenatcheejay]

to go view wolves in the wild would require a discovery pass which is $30
deer bear elk and cougar tag $79.20
Which is more money for the state?
Plus if someone would like to view wolves wouldnt they already be viewing wildlife and have a discovery pass?
Where are after the wolves wipe out the elk population and move onto others they will not sell tags for them.
https://fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/ so you can check the prices yourself

Last numbers I saw indicate that only 3.7% of the state's population (and decreasing) hunt.  If they can sell a discovery pass to 9.77% of the state (roughly 10% of non-hunters) they make the same amount.

I disagree:
The Discover Pass is for access to state lands.

1.  You would have to assume that everyone goes to state land to see wolves.
2.  There is an option for a day pass for $10.
3.  If there is any wildlife watching for wolves, people can go to the National Forest system for free.
4.  History shows that most small towns in Idaho and Montana have seen a decrease in tourist dollars with loss of hunters.

A bit off topic but this State's Administration has a habit of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Even if there is a shred of positive outcome from this new tax they will begin to divert funds to the General fund, it is one of my biggest gripes. Tax me for something then use it for that, don't divert funds again and again all the while raising that tax. It is why Tim Eyman has such a following.

Another grip, it is argued that Game Departments cater to hunters and fishermen, we pay the bills. So yeah, that has been the case. On a bigger scale these people who are against us have their eyes set on stealing our taxed hunting dollars at both a Federal and State level. It would be nice to get some assistance from the NRA or another large Nationwide organization that could use our State as a battle ground for this issue.