Twisp family denies killing gray wolves - Wenatchee World

[humanure]

To be honest, the sub-species isn't the deciding factor now that we are here today because there is NO reversing. AT ALL. They are here, they've adapted, now we have to. They are not endangered in Canada, but thats a different human territory. Does that make it harder than it has to be? Sure, but we don't always agree with how laws and governments work, now do we?

[Special T]

But that is why the logic is flawed on so many levels.

[humanure]

Flawed? MAYBE. Things about the logic and laws change as we go. They aren't going to just utterly abort, you know that.

The fact that the native species is gone is not something that will sway them to feel we don't need wolves. Apex predators excluding humans is something that was wrongfully removed(instead of managed). Thats why they are allowing Grizz to repopulate. Sorry, but sometimes results are swayed against what hunters/farmers want, and sometimes not. It's kind've how democracy works, which is why public testimony and voting is important to be involved with.

[humanure]

You have to realize, the hunting community is a SMALL aspect to most people when they view this state. The community is not infalleble. You cannot come off with an attitude that says you determine what is right and wrong for the environment and everyone who disagree's is a 'city-slickin greener'. You have no idea how bad statements like that hurt you. It makes you seem like unreasonable crack-pots who selfishly don't care about anything but killing wildlife. You have to play the PR game alot smarter. Granted, this is a hunting site, but it is public, and people do monitor these places.

[Special T]

First off this is a Republic, for a little while longer, and Second the state goes to great lengths to keep out invasive species that are not indigenous to the area. Mil foil, Zebra muscles, Nutria, Starlings, Do i need to go on?  Law is based on logic, and doesn't change as we go. 2+2=4 no matter how many times you tell people its 5.

[JLS]

You have to realize, the hunting community is a SMALL aspect to most people when they view this state. The community is not infalleble. You cannot come off with an attitude that says you determine what is right and wrong for the environment and everyone who disagree's is a 'city-slickin greener'. You have no idea how bad statements like that hurt you. It makes you seem like unreasonable crack-pots who selfishly don't care about anything but killing wildlife. You have to play the PR game alot smarter. Granted, this is a hunting site, but it is public, and people do monitor these places.

There is a lot of truth to this statement.  There is a very large portion of the public that does not hunt but is NOT anti-hunting.  This is the core group that will determine the future of hunting in this state, and any other for that matter.  Colorado has suffered from ballot box regulation of hunting also, as has CA and OR.  It's not just here and it won't get any better.

[humanure]

As much as i argue with you guys, i can't help but tell you to play the game more intelligently and less emotional. It makes things easier going no matter what the outcome comes to be, and it's makes these endless, circle-going discussions between people like you and people like me alot easier to delegate.

First off this is a Republic, for a little while longer, and Second the state goes to great lengths to keep out invasive species that are not indigenous to the area. Mil foil, Zebra muscles, Nutria, Starlings, Do i need to go on?  Law is based on logic, and doesn't change as we go. 2+2=4 no matter how many times you tell people its 5.

You keep saying invasive, non-indigemous, when there is no basis(to my knowledge) to prove that Washington wasn't part of Canadian Gray wolves territory before.

[Killmore]

Humanure, you say play the game more intelligently, if we did that then we would be hunting them now.

[humanure]

I was just saying that as one argumentative *censored* to another(s).

[humanure]

And BTW, people keep accusing the state of planting wolves, but have yet to present evidence when asked for it. Did I miss something and it's been substantiated? Or is it still just an accusation? I've heard about a certain lumber company illegally releasing wolves to cut down ungulates eating their sapling they depend on to harvest later, but evidence of that has yet to surface.

Nothing to say to this at all?

[Skyvalhunter]

Quit antagonizing people

[boneaddict]

Nothing to say to this at all?

At this point is really doesn't matter.  They are in almost every corner of the state.  Now what are you going to do?  If they didn't have help they sure moved fast. 

[humanure]

Just thought it was funny that it was an ignored question that criticizes some of the most guarded claims.

And yes, they do move fast. Dispersers can traverse hundreds and hundreds of miles in short amounts of time to find/create a new pack. Washington never needed help with having wolves return. It's quite easily done by itself naturally.

[reggart]

My point exactly.  They can't have it both ways.  Either the brush wolf was truly extinct thus necessitating an experimental non-essential introduction or there was a native population abeit small and if that is the case then they broke the law.

Humanure, you just stated my biggest complaint.

"But, BUT! Canadian Gray wolves have traveled back and forth over the border, as did the Cascades Mountain/Brush wolf. You have to remember, wolves and other wildlife do not recognize borders. It's the same as Canadian Gray's and southern Red wolves sharing territory in the northeastern states. In both cases, the sub-species of the south were exterminated and the northers broadened their territories without conflict. It's awefully common sensical and a fact that for some reason keeps getting swept under the rug."

Wolves have been in this state over the last 30 years. There are lots of sitings that have documented in the newspapers. Maybe not concrete proof, but like you said  wolves don't know borders.   So how can they be here and endangered at the same time?
The other conundrum  is the lack of importance of subspecies. Canadian grey wolves are not the same as native timer wolves.  We hunters have heard that subspecies are not important, but it is... It seems its only important for salmon and Red wolves but not Timber wolves... 

Those 2 issues tear large holes in the need for Gray wolves and uses ESA's own logic...  One of the many reasons i think this whole thing is BS.

[reggart]

Oh yes there is.  It's called cyanide poppers and lots of them.  That is what it took to knock them back to begin with (utilizing tax payer coffers) and that is the only thing that is going to control them this time around.  Once we can get someone with some brains and some real money to beat these guys at their own game by proving that they broke the law to begin with then we might have a slim chance of getting this problem back to reality.

To be honest, the sub-species isn't the deciding factor now that we are here today because there is NO reversing. AT ALL. They are here, they've adapted, now we have to. They are not endangered in Canada, but thats a different human territory. Does that make it harder than it has to be? Sure, but we don't always agree with how laws and governments work, now do we?