Frontal Shots? (Archery)

[WDFW-SUX]

I though this would be a good topic....Has anyone ever taken a frontal shot on an elk? Did it work out or did you lose the bull inquiring minds want to know?

[archery288]

I would never take that shot.   But, I have seen several shows on tv that guys do it and it works out fine.  One of my buddies took that shot at 8 yards on a big bull and it ran 30 yards and pilled up.  So I guess it works but I just don't feel comfortable taking it...

[Gobble]

To take that shot you have to be real coinfident in your ability to make it. The window is small and the downside if you miss slightly are huge. I would take it in the right situation because I have coinfidence in my abilities

[bucklucky]

I killed my first elk with a frontal quartering shot into the heart,. A couple years ago I had a bull come in the same way, was absolutely confident in my ability and felt very comftorbal taking that shot. NEVER EVER, EVER,EVER will I take a frontal shot again. 8 hours of traking and no bull. 12 yards was the distance . The bull ran about 35 yards and stopped , stood there for 40 minutes bleading with his head down. Vine maple was between me and the bull and the celial was up to my chest so moving around the vine maple wasnt an option. The wind swirlled and he cought my scent and walked off. Got over to where he was standing and it was like you dumped a 5 gallon bucket of blood. Gave him another 40 minutes , then it started pooring rain had no choice but to start after him or loose the blood. He went across ridges , up near verticle hills , and through a swamp before he quit bleeding. Bled good to start but peetered off quick. I think the arrow glanced off the ribs and went between the shoulder and ribcage. Lesson learned.......the hard way.

[vanhornhunter]

Never killed a elk like that but did ace a balcktail doe at about 30 yards.She went about 40 yards and bled out all her blood.Found the arrow near the hind quarters lodged in the spin almost cut myself when I gutted her.

[bullchaser]

I once shot a beautiful buck facing me @ 20 yards drilled him right were i was aiming. he went 600 yrds and i eventually lost him after following pin drops for two days. I would never do it again. I have learned through experiance (the hard way) it is not a quality shot and should not be taken. I feel our animals are to valuable to take that gamble just because it works out sometimes.

[MagKarl]

Bucklucky/Bullchaser - Thanks for posting that you took that shot and lost an animal.  Not a lot of folks are willing to admit that they've ever lost an animal.  It happens, even on the best of shot opportunities.

[tlbradford]

Thanks for posting.  I have never taken that shot on an animal, but would have at those distances given the oppurtunity.  After reading those posts, I will probably reconsider.

[WDFW-SUX]

I've probably had 20 bulls within 50 yards that presented a frontal shot and I have never taken one.  I probably would if it was 5 yards though

[viper55]

I have seen it work on a deer but I would never take the shot myself. First I have to have an elk close enough for me to shoot.

[MIKEXRAY]

Never.

[addicted]

i was taught that they would just bleed out on the inside and we wouldnt be able to track em  

[boneaddict]

I've done it on a whitetail at 8 or 10 yards.  WOULD NEVER do it with an elk.

[Broken Arrow]

Not sure I would ever take that shot with an elk, they are to tough....though I have had opportunities...I just wait for them to turn. However, with that said I have taken 2 shots on deer like that. The first was my very first archery deer. It was 20 yards....and I will never forget it. It was like someone turned on a garden house out of the brisket area.....blood was pumping out 4-5 feet....deer went maybe 30 feet and died. The second was one of the strangest things i have ever seen. I shot a whitetail buck at the top of a hill......as I was cresting.....and he was 7 yards away....it was so quick.....he popped his head up and all i had was a neck and head....i put my 20 yard pin right under his jaw...squeezed the release and he disappeared. I walked over and he was laying prone, with all 4 legs stiff in the air and the arrow went up his nose and stuck in the back of his skull....i just stared in disbelief....think he was paralyzed...so i stuck him in the jugular with my knife and he bled out.

[addicted]

Not sure I would ever take that shot with an elk, they are to tough....though I have had opportunities...I just wait for them to turn. However, with that said I have taken 2 shots on deer like that. The first was my very first archery deer. It was 20 yards....and I will never forget it. It was like someone turned on a garden house out of the brisket area.....blood was pumping out 4-5 feet....deer went maybe 30 feet and died. The second was one of the strangest things i have ever seen. I shot a whitetail buck at the top of a hill......as I was cresting.....and he was 7 yards away....it was so quick.....he popped his head up and all i had was a neck and head....i put my 20 yard pin right under his jaw...squeezed the release and he disappeared. I walked over and he was laying prone, with all 4 legs stiff in the air and the arrow went up his nose and stuck in the back of his skull....i just stared in disbelief....think he was paralyzed...so i stuck him in the jugular with my knife and he bled out.

dang. you got pics of that?

[Intruder]

 

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I like full frontal...

[Hornseeker]

Well Guys...I dont kill anything with my bows...as much time as I try..so this is all second hand.. of all the hunters I know, the most successful one PRAISES the frontal and likes it better than ANY shot possible, even a pure broadside... funny huh. He does have conditions that have to be met though, and many of you/us will not meet them...

Heavy Bow (65+)
Heavy Arrow (500+, preferrably 600+)
Close Range (no more than about 15-18 yards, closer better)
KNOW where to hit (he knows...I really dont)
Confidence

There are guys..and I actually think Bone is one of them...that just know how to kill an animal... some of these guys WILL take shots at about ANY angle...and will recover their game quickly...at least as often as "us" guys taking the so called, "ethical" shots...

Just my .02  (and the .02's of many friends)

PS...I also have other friends that have killed upwards of 20 elk with their bows that would never take a frontal.....again! :0)

[MountainWalk]

i have seen it work on elk twice, by the same person. i have never shot an elk with my bow. i have done it on whitetails at fairly close range,i e, yards and under.  ive blasted elk head on with a rifle and dropped them like bad habits.

[Opportunist]

I've done it twice, once on purpose and once on accident.

My first bull I called in to bow, of course he came in straight on so I took the shot at 12 yards trying to slip it in at the base of the neck into the brisket. I was ignorant. I got 4 inches of penetration and left the broadhead in the bull. No blood after a 100 yards, no recovery, a 5x4 bull was killed by a rifle hunter in the same area a month later with a broadhead buried in his brisket. Lesson learned the hard way, DON'T TAKE FRONTAL SHOTS. I'm a self taught bowhunter, in fact my dad hates bowhunting. So everything I've learned has been through hardknocks.

 Five years later while bowhunting Eastern Oregon I called in a bull for a friend of mine. The nice 6 point was coming in on a leash but I called in a satelite spike that came into my right. The spike spooked and ran to the right. The 6 heard the spike run off so he switched direction at 40 yards towards the spike, which set me up for the shot. The bull stopped broadside slightly quartering towards on a steep hillside. The bull was at 30 yards and he saw me draw, so he was staring at me. When I released my fletching whirred and the bull whirled into the shot and I shot him in the throat. It was so quick I wasn't even sure where I hit him. We gave him thirty minutes and started tracking him out when I heard him start coughing, he only went 60 yards. I had shot him in the windpipe. This is what i call complete *censored*house luck that I killed that bull. A bulls ribs from the front are setup anatomically like a sheild from the front or quartering towards, very easy for an arrow to deflect left or right. The throat and jugulars combined are about a 3 inch target. Broadside double lung only on elk!

I'll never intentionally take a frontal shot!

[GoldTip]

I never have taken that shot on an elk, but I would if given the right circumstances, there is a completely non-bony window from the front, and at less than 20 yards I would take the shot if all circumstances were correct.  I have passed on that shot in the past as well, as I didn't feel everything was just right.

[vanhornhunter]

Here is a link to site I found pretty interesting.
http://www.inberg.ca/hunting_essentials/elk_anatomy_&_shot_placement.htm

[bullchaser]

vanhornhunter, Nice link thanks for the info very informative.

[Opportunist]

Very good link. Wish I had read that 20 years ago when I started bowhunting.

[boneaddict]

Very good information.

[Todd_ID]

I've killed several elk with a frontal shot with a bow.  They don't go near as far as they do with my broadside shots, in my experience.  I don't recommend the shot for a new hunter, because I feel that knowledge and skills are what it takes to make the shot a lethal one.  Many times this is the only shot you'll ever get on a bull you're calling in, and it'll probably be close.  I am confident in my abilities and can make a shot like this with a bull staring me down, but it does take nerves of steel.  They don't jump the string like a whitetail does.

[WDFW-SUX]

I love to see a wound pic of a frontal shot if anyone has one

[Todd_ID]

Just watch ASAT Camo's video, "Feed the Addiction"....I think there's three of them in there from the same morning, all with a bow.  All of them barely stumbled out of video range before tipping over.  They all left buckets of blood.

There's few other angles that give you a chance at heart, 1 lung, liver and a major artery.  They pour out quick, but you've got to make the shot count.  Anywhere inside the hollow of the collar bone (the same as you've got on your neck) will get to the heart as long as it's not too steep downhill: uphill shots will get an artery, lung and liver.  There's no obstructions, and it's only about 11-12" into the heart from the front. 

If there's any shake at all in your sight pins, then let down and hope for the broadside shot, though.  A wounded animal would be a bad thing!  (And, yes, I've lost animals with my bow, but never a frontal shot.)

[bowhuntin]

Here is a video of one from Oregon

[Opportunist]

We all make decisions in the woods about shot placement based on our experiences and skill, but elk are the toughest animal to kill to kill in north america and taking a low percentage shot like a frontal is a bad idea. Better off changing your setup in calling so you don't end up with a bull straight on.

 I don't care if it was shown on a video, there is alot of stupid *censored* on videos. I'm teaching my son to bowhunt this year and I'm using a handful of videos for my son to watch on how not to do it. Broadside double lung or slightly quartering away is the only shot on elk.

 To me it's sad to even be discussing this with other bowhunters who regard it as a viable shot, I'd rather wait for the broadside shot and eat my tag than take a desperation shot like a frontal just to fill my tag. 

[MIKEXRAY]

Perfect answer Opportunist, just what I was thinking.

[Todd_ID]

Never in a million years would I advocate this shot to a new hunter.  Even a veteran rifle elk hunter I would steer clear of trying it with a bow.  When one's got 10, 15 or 20 elk with a bow behind them and all of the experience that comes with getting those elk, then I am not going to be one to say that they should not take it just because I don't feel it's a good shot.  That being said, I will clarify some to say that there is basically no shot on an animal that is at all quartering toward you; my definition of frontal means directly in line with no quartering, and that is a different thing than quartering towards.

I agree that setup changes can be made to help from getting the head-on approach, but not all elk respond the same, so it still can happen.  By all means don't take the shot unless you are certain you'll make a killing shot: same as a broadside shot.  In the end, you are not the only one that has to live with the consequences; that elk, future calves from him or her, and other hunters' opportunities all must factor into your decision to shoot or not.  Filling a tag has little to do with it; whether it's possible or not is what this thread is about.

[bullchaser]

"A frontal shot is irresponsible because there is too much muscle and bones protecting the heart. I have a host of sad tales of wounded elk running off with arrows sticking out of their chests. A frontal shot is a poor choice, it's a stupid choice. Pass it up and go home with a clear conscience." -Mike Lapinski - 40 to 50 bulls to his credit. We could ask Dwight Shue or Larry D Jones we would get the same answer. -Probably another 100 bulls between them. I have a feeling those who argue that anything but a broadside shot on a bull is OK Have never been beside themselves with anguish and guilt because they took a shot they shouldn't have. I have and I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy's. I don't really care what some coyboy from California did on utube it was probably his fist Elk. The point is it doesn't allways work (double lung at 25 does) and I wish someone would have told me that before the day I tried it. 

[bowhuntin]

I agree not a shot that an archer should take, leave those kinds of shots for modern firearm season. Just posted that video because I remembered seeing it on youtube and some one was asking about a video of a shot.

[bullchaser]

I am not questioning you bowhuntin I just feel strongly about the subject.

[Elknut1]

  No doubt, frontal shots are not to be taken lightly, it's a tough shot to pull off even for the more experienced elk hunter! The front head-on of an elk is built like the front of a boat, it's got that V-shape to it, most guys are trying to catch the main arteries there not so much a heart shot.I personally will let a bull walk if that's all that is offered. I have wounded a bull many years ago with a frontal shot at 17yds, it was my fault entirely. I purposely placed the shot to the right of center & I could tell from the arrows angle in him it it slid to the right of his heart hugging the leg area more than anything. Never found that bull after 6 hours of searching & a decent but not great blood trail. He took us straight up hill for 3/4 of a mile, bad sign!!!! I went back the next day & still found nothing!

  No frontal shots for me!!!

  However, do not confuse a quartering to you shot to a frontal shot! This is highly effective & doable even for trad shooters out to 20yds. It's a decent sized kill zone larger than a cantaloupe.  I consider this a steep quartering shot head on, in other words if you can see the elks right side or left side of rear end & a slight quartering side of his chest you can slip an arrow between the brisket & front leg, yet under the scapula/shoulder blade, this means taking an elk from the ground with a mid height or a bit lower type shot. I've killed several bucks with this exact shot & 2 bulls, they don't go far. You have no more rib bone or muscle mass to penetrate than a broadside shot.
  This is a shot for us at 20 yds or under with our recurves & longbows. I took my bull last year with this exact shot at 13 yds, it took out his heart with a wensel woodsman broadhead.  You do have room for error, you don't have to hit a coffee cup sized target to pull it off.

  I will add photos of an elks anatomy & of a bull I took 3 years ago with this same shot out of a Hoyt bow shooting 220fps & a magnus stinger 4-blade broadhead. That bull went less than 100yds.  The key to taking any shot on elk is knowing their anatomy, leave the guessing at home, be 100% confident on any shot angle & your effective range.

  I agree excitement & experience along with nerves of steel come into play on very close encounters, but broadside shots can cause this same excitement, aim small miss small. Know your target well before hitting the elkwoods!! If it's nothing but broadside shots, so be it. If you have other angles you are confident in then know them well & what it takes to up the percentages for quick clean kills. We do owe it to the animal, they're not pin cushions!!

  I'm also including a photo of a bull we took with this quartering to you shot I spoke of.

  http://www.bowhunting.net/NAspecies/elk2.html   look at the broadside skeleton photo, you can tell that there's no more rib bone to get through on that than the quartering to you shot I spoke of.

  ElkNut1

 

[boneaddict]

How do you deal with the front shoulder....are you going on the inside of it, or do you mean you are slicing into the boiler roombehind it at a hard angle??

re-read it.......got it!(problem about doing this at work. 

I've got a calling question for you elknut, can I pm you?

[Elknut1]

  Doug, no problem! Feel free to do so!

  ElkNut/Paul

[Intruder]

Perfect answer Opportunist, just what I was thinking.

+1

[sdwwaverider]

I shot 1 last season with a frontal shot. 25 to 30 yards, slid it inside the right shoulder. He ran 158 ft (by my GPS) and piled up. Went right through his heart. Had a perfect star through it. I had hunted for 9 days and had passed up 4 due to range or angle. I had taken a bobcat the day before at 35 yards so my confidence was up. I will still pursue a better angle in the future but would be tempted to try it again depending on the circumstances.

[Intruder]

  However, do not confuse a quartering to you shot to a frontal shot! This is highly effective & doable even for trad shooters out to 20yds. It's a decent sized kill zone larger than a cantaloupe.  I consider this a steep quartering shot head on, in other words if you can see the elks right side or left side of rear end & a slight quartering side of his chest you can slip an arrow between the brisket & front leg, yet under the scapula/shoulder blade, this means taking an elk from the ground with a mid height or a bit lower type shot.

Interesting.... I think I understand and am able to visualize what you're describing.  If feasible could you post a photo of an elk in quartering position w/ the target zone marked.

[Elknut1]

 Intruder, I'll see what I can come up with? Not sure if I know how to post such a photo or not! (grin) I'll work on it! By the way we've taken 7 bulls in the last 5 years total with this quartering to you shot in our camp! Not a "frontal shot" We have not lost any to this angle. It's as deadly as a quartering away shot for comparison.

  ElkNut1

[Intruder]

Thanks!

It makes sense.  I guess what surprises me is the size of the area.  I've never given it much thought but just off the cuff my impression would have been that you only have an opening 3" across.  But you're sayin its more like 6-8" maybe?  That would change my perspective about that for sure.  Within 20 yards that's feasible.  Hell, the areas I hunt it's likely to only be 10-20 anyway. 

[DeKuma]

There is a topic on Archery Talk about this very thing with some decent photos, some form the link above and some showing real elk with the areas highlighted.

[Intruder]

On this site, right?  Do you know what the topic tittle is?

[DeKuma]

No, it is here:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=709293

[MIKEXRAY]

Ouch ! that looks like it would hurt like hell. Apparently the guy was looking at his antlers when he shot. Probably thought he missed.   Thanks for the picture although gives the archers a bad name to see pics like that.

[BLUEBULLS]

It does give us archers a bad name which is too bad. Maybe he hit brush or something, hopefully there was a good explanation but probably not.

[DeKuma]

Shot the leg right off of him too!