Lighted nock article in the spokesman

[pianoman9701]

Pionoman, show me where I was speaking for the majority of archery hunters.  If you reread my post you will see I stated my opinion and nothing more.  Do I not get to have an opinion? 

It may just be my assumption, but it sounds to me like you have little or no experience with archery hunting for big game.

Thats quite an assumption to make off of one post don't you think?


You and the hunters you know probably don't fall into the majority.  Again, all it takes is to spend a day out in the late Swakane archery hunt and I believe you will find that the majority of those out there don't fall into the category of "doing it for the challenge and difficulty".

I don't know anything about Swakane, but I do know it's only a tiny part of our entire hunting area in WA.

"I believe most are hunting those seasons because of timing of those seasons and a perceived notion that they will have a better chance at killing something." "Most" is a majority.  As far as my assumption about your big game archery experience is concerned, you're right, it is a big assumption. So, do you hunt big game with archery equipment? The way you write about archery would indicate that you don't know much about it or the people who practice it. I'd be interested to know.

You also didn't answer my question about whether you had actual facts to back up your statement in agreement with the guy campaigning for lighted nocks. "Sure are a lot of hurt feelings over this article.  From my experience I don't think it is far from factual." How do you come to that conclusion? Your "experience" in the Swakane area is hardly a presentation of hard data. It's absolutely subjective if all you're going on is your gut and what you've "experienced".

But you're missing my main point, which is that we need to be more supportive of all hunters always, unless an individual gives us a bad name or acts in a way that casts a bad light on hunters in general. That fact that we all, archers, modern, and ML hunters comprise only 7% of the state's population (source: WDFW) means that when one of us states publicly that half of all archery shot animals are lost, we alarm the public and make them think that hunting is not such a good thing. We need to speak about hunting in a positive light, especially when our thoughts are being published. This guy threw archers under the bus just to forward his personal campaign.

[Lowedog]

Still simply stated my opinion.  Nowhere did I say I spoke for anyone other than myself.  When I say I believe most people hunt muzzy or archery more because of timing of seasons rather than the increased difficulty or challenge, that is what I believe.  I never said it was fact.  My belief is based on my experiences and by the people I meet and talk to.

If you don't feel that the fact that the late Swakane archery continues and is supported by a majority of archery groups and hunters shows nothing more than a desire to have a challenging season then that is your opinion.  I feel otherwise.  Myself and my close friends no longer hunt that hunt because of what it has become.  I know a lot of people who have now switched to muzzy because of it. 

Hunts like that and others around the state that are similar become nothing more than a shooting gallery and the fact that the only people witnessing it are other hunters is the only difference from this article and what takes place in the field in regards to casting a bad light on hunting.  Just because only other hunters get to see things like this happen doesn't make it OK. 

As Aldo Leopold, the “father of wildlife management,” once said, “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching—even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”

[JimmyHoffa]

piano,
I made a very similar comment that Lowedog did.  I will hunt with anything they will let me use....though if forced to choose a tag it comes down to 'What season/GMU will give me my best chance for getting an animal?', 'What weapon is required?', and 'What is the reality of getting something in that season with that weapon?'  This year I have the multi tag for deer...so I didn't have to hurt my head thinking about those too much.  But as a previous poster wrote there are many reasons why someone chooses to hunt with archery gear.  Some like to be out there in the rut and use a bugle, some like to have longer seasons, some like hunting earlier in the year because of work schedules.  Some people like that it is more challenging than a rifle.  But I think if it were about making it as challenging as possible (just my opinion) you would see A LOT more recurves and longbows.  I see very few trad bows out there.  Is hunting with a compound with adjustable sights a challenge?  Yes it is.  You can make it more demanding by the way you hunt.  It might be all the challenge one needs to get to 50 yds from an animal with a bow, vs 100 with a rifle.  Some people want it even harder...and try to get 15 yds and use bows that are good for 30 yds.

[pianoman9701]

Still simply stated my opinion.  Nowhere did I say I spoke for anyone other than myself.  When I say I believe most people hunt muzzy or archery more because of timing of seasons rather than the increased difficulty or challenge, that is what I believe.  I never said it was fact.  My belief is based on my experiences and by the people I meet and talk to.

If you don't feel that the fact that the late Swakane archery continues and is supported by a majority of archery groups and hunters shows nothing more than a desire to have a challenging season then that is your opinion.  I feel otherwise.  Myself and my close friends no longer hunt that hunt because of what it has become.  I know a lot of people who have now switched to muzzy because of it. 

Hunts like that and others around the state that are similar become nothing more than a shooting gallery and the fact that the only people witnessing it are other hunters is the only difference from this article and what takes place in the field in regards to casting a bad light on hunting.  Just because only other hunters get to see things like this happen doesn't make it OK. 

As Aldo Leopold, the “father of wildlife management,” once said, “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching—even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”

I agree completely with your comments about ethics and live by them. I was just saying that if we're going to go public with negative points about hunting, we'd better not only be very accurate about our statements (I don't believe he has data about 50%), but be prepared that the linen we air in public about our fellow hunters will affect how non-hunters view our sport. That's all.

[jnevs23]

Not only do I not believe the statistic of 50% lose to be true, it is so dated that it is no longer relevant.  A statistic that is 20-30 years old relating to archery equipment is no longer accurate (assuming it ever was).  Comparing a 20-30 year old compound bow to what is on the market now is like racing a model t and Porsche 911

[pianoman9701]

Not only do I not believe the statistic of 50% lose to be true, it is so dated that it is no longer relevant.  A statistic that is 20-30 years old relating to archery equipment is no longer accurate (assuming it ever was).  Comparing a 20-30 year old compound bow to what is on the market now is like racing a model t and Porsche 911

Thanks for making that point.

[jnevs23]

As far as reasons to archery hunt it is different for everyone.There is no one or two reasons for doing it.  I personally started archery hunting because it was very difficult to find a mature whitetail during modern season in 101.  The more I got into the more I enjoyed seeing increased activity and more bucks even if I can't shoot them.  I've seen the quote on here before, " with a rifle you see a buck and the hunt is over, with archery you see a buck and the hunt begins".  I personally have a much better opportunity to harvest deer with a rifle these days because of private land access.  I choose archery for the challenge of matching wits with deer on their turf and the longer seasons allow me to plan around work, school, and my family

[popeshawnpaul]

If anything is a black eye to archery hunting it is the fact that WDFW continues to have a general season mule deer hunt during the rut confined to a couple of units knowing that the Swakane is so accessible.  That and the fact that archery hunters continue to support that hunt and flock to it in huge numbers because they think it will be an easy way to kill a mature rutting mule deer should tell you where the heart of the majority of archery hunters lies.

While we are a little off topic, I'm not quite sure statistics bear out what you are saying.  Last year 644 archery hunters hunted swakane versus 618 for rifle hunters.  Essentially the same amount of people.  Where is the great outpouring of support to pull the modern firearm season?  Seems like a double standard...?  Can you imagine (and I can because i've been there during the rifle season) the zoo it is there with not only a decent number of people, but shots flying by everywhere? 

Then you look a the fact they hunt mid to late October when all the resident and many early migrating deer are there.  whether rut or not, every deer in that unit dies during that season.  Rifle hunters killed 87 deer to only 67 by archers.  It is the only late hunt archers have left as all our opportunity to hunt has been taken from us.  There are tons of general rifle hunts around.  It seems if the goal is to maintain a higher buck/doe ratio in that unit while not substantially affecting allocation and opportunity, the statistics show taking away the general rifle hunt would have much less impact than taking away the only late archery hunt.     I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why that issue is off the table for this season setting package now.  There is nothing easy about that swakane hunt if your an archer.  If you are a rifle hunter, it's easy as pie, however...

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Great post Shawn!

[Machias]

Brilliant......as an excuse to use the cute little toy you are going to tell all of the non hunting population (aka future anti hunters/bleeding hearts) that bowhunters wound game and don't find them.   He can poll me if he'd like.    Also release numbers based on 50 folks.   Brilliant again. 

and then if we stand up to our own on here because they take dumb shots, don't put in the appropriate effort to recover game, etc we are chastised as being too hard on someone or feeding to the anti hunters.   WHATEVER!   In this case being stonehard better than the average Blok, isn't such a bad thing.

ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED by a glow in the dark arrow.   BRILLIANT AGAIN!

   X100

[Lowedog]

If anything is a black eye to archery hunting it is the fact that WDFW continues to have a general season mule deer hunt during the rut confined to a couple of units knowing that the Swakane is so accessible.  That and the fact that archery hunters continue to support that hunt and flock to it in huge numbers because they think it will be an easy way to kill a mature rutting mule deer should tell you where the heart of the majority of archery hunters lies.

While we are a little off topic, I'm not quite sure statistics bear out what you are saying.  Last year 644 archery hunters hunted swakane versus 618 for rifle hunters.  Essentially the same amount of people.  Where is the great outpouring of support to pull the modern firearm season?  Seems like a double standard...?  Can you imagine (and I can because i've been there during the rifle season) the zoo it is there with not only a decent number of people, but shots flying by everywhere? 

Then you look a the fact they hunt mid to late October when all the resident and many early migrating deer are there.  whether rut or not, every deer in that unit dies during that season.  Rifle hunters killed 87 deer to only 67 by archers.  It is the only late hunt archers have left as all our opportunity to hunt has been taken from us.  There are tons of general rifle hunts around.  It seems if the goal is to maintain a higher buck/doe ratio in that unit while not substantially affecting allocation and opportunity, the statistics show taking away the general rifle hunt would have much less impact than taking away the only late archery hunt.     I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why that issue is off the table for this season setting package now.  There is nothing easy about that swakane hunt if your an archer.  If you are a rifle hunter, it's easy as pie, however...

Those numbers are pretty telling themselves.  More archers hunt that unit than rifle hunters?  I wonder how many only hunt the early season?  You need to take into consideration that the late archery hunt is during the peak of the rut and usually when the deer are concentrated to the lower elevations which in turn concentrates the hunters.  The fact that the archery hunters are nearly as successful as rifle hunters should also tell you that the timing of those hunts are a big factor. 

Rifle season in that unit is a joke also along with most general rifle areas but not nearly as much as the late archery.  General rifle occurs at a time of year when deer are still for the most part in their summer habitat and mode.  The entire state is open at the same time for general rifle.  The late Swakane archery hunt is one of the sacrificial lambs to keep archery hunters happy.  There is no comparing what you will see there during late archery and rifle.  Apple to oranges. 

Come over sometime during the late archery hunt and I will put you on a big buck along with the 20 other guys who know about it and you will have the hunt of your life.   

[popeshawnpaul]

I've done that hunt most of the last 5 years.  I know the feelings you have and share many on the overcrowding issue Lowedog.  I think there might be another answer to disperse that crowding, however.  I've seen a lot of big bucks killed there in the early season.  Huge 5x5's, a double drop tine buck well publicized on this forum, etc.  Whether it's an early or late migratory deer, it's still a dead buck.  It's not the prime time to hunt for the rifle season yet they still killed approximately 25% more deer and they hunted less to get increased success. 

[boneaddict]

Some of the issues of that overcrowding would be to open up some of the units that have been shut down such as Alta, the hunt in the Cowiche etc.   The Swakane has been a popular hunt for a LONG time, but bottlenecking it certainly doesn't help.

[whacker1]

Some of the issues of that overcrowding would be to open up some of the units that have been shut down such as Alta, the hunt in the Cowiche etc.   The Swakane has been a popular hunt for a LONG time, but bottlenecking it certainly doesn't help.

Participation would likely go up, and archer satisfaction would as well.  Crowding would go down, and harvest across the added units would likely tick up slightly, but probably not as significantly as the decrease in harvest in the swakane that results for the people that would disperse from that unit to the other units as compared to prior seasons.    

One of the solutions to crowding is to allow people to spread out, and typically harvest goes down in the crowded units while total harvest will tick up slightly.  It seems like we (wdfw)  bury one unit to grant opportunity at the expense of saving the management in the other units.  Wierd solution in my opinion. 

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Great comments Bone and Whacker... exactly what I told them at the Federal Way meeting... make sure you comment to them about that on the survey!