Four point minimum 117&121

[bearpaw]

I guess I don't understand how having apr for and extended amount of time breeds quality bucks? The only buck you can kill are the ones that need to be alive and breeding! Thatsvwhy when you go on a MANAGEMENT hunt you're only allowed to kill up to a certain sized buck, because the right thing to do is keep the big mature bucks in the breeding cycle and manage the smaller odd balls and genetically lacking bucks as well as the old dried up bucks.

There are several topics on the forum that cover most of the issues for and against. Not sure what you mean, are you saying you want management hunts in WA?

[Archeryoutfitters]

I guess I don't understand how having apr for and extended amount of time breeds quality bucks? The only buck you can kill are the ones that need to be alive and breeding! Thatsvwhy when you go on a MANAGEMENT hunt you're only allowed to kill up to a certain sized buck, because the right thing to do is keep the big mature bucks in the breeding cycle and manage the smaller odd balls and genetically lacking bucks as well as the old dried up bucks.

The idea is to let the baby's grow up and not shot them, letting them get wiser, so more live to that mature deer we all like to kill. and then their wisdom keeps them alive.  This is a little different than hunting on a farm or ranch, were you get in trouble for shooting a 140+ you have no way of killing all the big bucks, there is far to much habitat in then 2 units to ever do that, just by letting them grow from that baby stage, far more will die of old age now, and the does will get bread on time. Every 2-1/2  3-1/2  4-1/2  5-1/2 and so will be legal to shoot? all it's doing is letting the baby's grow out of that stupid stage.

[Maverick]

Well said archeryoutfitters 

[Fowlweather25]

  that makes sense!

I guess I don't understand how having apr for and extended amount of time breeds quality bucks? The only buck you can kill are the ones that need to be alive and breeding! Thatsvwhy when you go on a MANAGEMENT hunt you're only allowed to kill up to a certain sized buck, because the right thing to do is keep the big mature bucks in the breeding cycle and manage the smaller odd balls and genetically lacking bucks as well as the old dried up bucks.

There are several topics on the forum that cover most of the issues for and against. Not sure what you mean, are you saying you want management hunts in WA?

no, that was an example, what I'm saying is personally I would like to see some of those mature bucks being able to spread their genetic strong points a little more instead of being targeted even more than before the 4 pt min was implemented.

[Archeryoutfitters]

that makes sense!

I guess I don't understand how having apr for and extended amount of time breeds quality bucks? The only buck you can kill are the ones that need to be alive and breeding! Thatsvwhy when you go on a MANAGEMENT hunt you're only allowed to kill up to a certain sized buck, because the right thing to do is keep the big mature bucks in the breeding cycle and manage the smaller odd balls and genetically lacking bucks as well as the old dried up bucks.

There are several topics on the forum that cover most of the issues for and against. Not sure what you mean, are you saying you want management hunts in WA?

no, that was an example, what I'm saying is personally I would like to see some of those mature bucks being able to spread their genetic strong points a little more instead of being targeted even more than before the 4 pt min was implemented.

they will because there will be a lot more of them running around now than before, all the little ones will get a chance to grow up now,  and far more will make it to adult hood now,  Than ever before.

[Fowlweather25]

Makes sense

[Archeryoutfitters]

that makes sense!

I guess I don't understand how having apr for and extended amount of time breeds quality bucks? The only buck you can kill are the ones that need to be alive and breeding! Thatsvwhy when you go on a MANAGEMENT hunt you're only allowed to kill up to a certain sized buck, because the right thing to do is keep the big mature bucks in the breeding cycle and manage the smaller odd balls and genetically lacking bucks as well as the old dried up bucks.

There are several topics on the forum that cover most of the issues for and against. Not sure what you mean, are you saying you want management hunts in WA?

no, that was an example, what I'm saying is personally I would like to see some of those mature bucks being able to spread their genetic strong points a little more instead of being targeted even more than before the 4 pt min was implemented.

they will because there will be a lot more of them running around now than before, all the little ones will get a chance to grow up now,  and far more will make it to adult hood now,  Than ever before.

 I see what your saying, and its true, they will be more targeted.(but there will be a lot more of them now) or would you rather see the baby's targeted who don't have a chance, or the since to move into the brush after day light.   or would you rather see the mature,  deer grow a little before he is shot, we will see a large increase in the #s of mature bucks running around now, and they will be twice as hard to harvest so twice as many will live.

[muleyguy]

The idea is to let the baby's grow up and not shot them, letting them get wiser, so more live to that mature deer we all like to kill. and then their wisdom keeps them alive.

no data supports this thesis;  In PA, after 10 yrs of APR's the data shows that  most of the  bucks just get shot 1 yr later, with a few making it to 3.5 yr olds;   AND, that is with 60% of the hunter population shooting does, thereby  taking the pressure off of the bucks;  there has been no explosion of 4.5 yr old bucks and better in PA after 10 yrs, just like there hasn't been any explosion in 4.5 yr old bucks in the Palouse either with APR's.

Muley guy you act like because there is an Apr every mature buck will be ed and there will be nothing left but 1.5 year old bucks. Not true. According to you all the nice bucks we shot were 3.5 year olds. We saw some others the same size meaning theyll be 4.5 next year. Just cause there is an apr and hunters have to be concentrated on older bucks doesn't mean all the older bucks get shot. Not every one tags out and those bucks don't get older by being stupid. There's even plenty of 2.5 year olds that make it to be 3.5 years old this year. The Apr works. The herds wouldn't be able to handle any deer. And why would anybody wabt to hunt 2 out of three here's. A better percentage of hunters would probly tag out but I'm not out there to just tag out. Im out there to hunt.

where to start......at least you are coming to grips with the fact that the bucks you harvested are indeed 2.5 yr and 3.5 yr old bucks.......so that is progress.  The reason APR's will be so problematic in 117 and 121 vs the Palouse units is as follows:

In the Palouse, you have much lower hunting pressure then 117 and 121, and almost ALL of the whitetails are located on private ground;  plus you have NO general late season tag; 
In addition, ALL of the APR's in Eastern US have huge antlerless options with them;  we can't provide that option in this State;

All of the above I have stated is fact;  not specualtion;

In PA and the other Eastern States where they have had APR's for many years, the data is pretty straightforward;  75% of the bucks get shot at 2.5 yrs old;  and, the vast majority of the remaining 25% being shot when they are 3.5 yr olds;   Some states back there are seeing a very, very small increase in recruitment into the 4.5 yr old class;

BUT, this recruitment is entirely due to the fact that a large percentage of the harvest pressure is focused on antlerless;

In the Palouse, you have had APR's for 10 yrs;  there has not been some huge increase in harvest of 4.5 yr old bucks;  I hunted the Palouse for many years before the APR, and have hunted many years since, and know what is being harvested out of there now;  There are no increases in 4.5 yr old bucks coming out of the Palouse vs before the APR regardless of what you think you are seeing, and, in fact, my guess is that there are fewer of them then before the APR.

What is happening in the Palouse though because of the shortened season, and high amount of private ground, is that a few more bucks are making it out the 2.5 yr old class and into the 3.5 yr old class;  this is due to the lower hunter pressure, high amount of private ground, and short general season hunt in October.

I would completely expect that there would be few more 3.5 yr old bucks;  that makes sense given the season length, private ground, etc.  But, even with all this, there still is not any big increase in 4.5 yr old bucks;  so, the effects of the APR are muted somewhat;  still negative, but muted a little;  at least a few more bucks are getting to 3.5, but, still all of them getting shot.

Now lets contrast that with 117 and 121..................probably triple the hunting pressure, highly concentrated on public ground; and, to boot, a late general season during the rut, no antlerless option for general season tags........

the mature buck part of the population will be under HUGE amounts of pressure from this........especially on public ground........

I have two predictions and I am willing to publically state them:

1. You will never get rid of APR's in these units
2.  You will in the not too distant future lose the late general hunt.
3.  It will not improve the health or productivity of the herd

This is the legacy of EVERY APR in this State; there is no reason to expect it will be any different with this one

[muleyguy]

I would like to see your proof that more mature bucks were killed this season than the previous season.

we will find out when the hunter surveys are done..........my guess is that this year, due to the lower hunting pressure (which just pushed the hunters somewhere else putting more pressure on some other deer herd) that about the same number of 4pt and 5pt+ whitetails were killed as last year;  when it comes out, we will know for sure;

But, it is totally expected that hunter numbers would be down this year because the rule outlawed the biggest component of the buck population;  but, fear not, they will be back next year.........it really is pretty sad management in this state when one local user group gets a rule changed so they force a bunch of hunter pressure on other local user groups in neighboring units.........

But, we will find out where the harvest was soon enough;  wait until 2012 hunting season when all these hunters come rushing back..............

In the meantime, here is some simple math that illustrates the problem:

Preseason:

100 total deer;  30 of them bucks; brokeout in age this way

15   1.5 yr olds
6     2.5 yr olds
4    3.5 yr olds
5     4.5 yr old and older

so, in this mix 50% of the bucks in the population are 1.5 yr old

Postseason:

lets say 10 bucks were shot because hunter pressure was temporarily 1 yr lower because of APR;  for a postseason buck to doe ratio of 20 to 100, and because of the APR, those 10 bucks are 2.5 yr old and older;

you now have 15 out of the 20 postseason bucks being 1.5 yr old;  or put into percentage terms, 75% of the bucks postseason are now 1.5 yrs old

So, now the makeup of the buck population going into breeding season is:

75% 1.5 yr olds;  and 25%  2.5 yr old or older

15 bucks 1.5 yr old;  5 bucks 2.5 yr old or older


Now, lets look at no APR, same situation:

Preseason

15   1.5 yr olds
6     2.5 yr olds
4     3.5 yr olds
5     4.5 yr olds or older

lets say 15 bucks are harvested because of increased harvest pressure with no APR;

EVERY hunting study shows that yearling bucks make up about 85% of the harvest;  so, lets just say 10 of the bucks were 1.5 yr old; with the rest (5) being in the 2.5 yr and older category;

Postseason:

33% bucks post harvest are 1.5 yr old;   66% bucks are 2.5 yr old and older;

5 bucks 1.5 yr old ;  10 bucks 2.5 yr old or older


So, is it that hard to understand how it works???

You stockpiled 1.5 yr old deer in the population with the APR, dramatically increasing the odds that these bucks will be successful in breeding does.

You did indeed end up with 5 "more" bucks in the population because of the APR this first year, BUT when hunting pressure normalizes next year they will just all get shot at 2.5 yr old;


The above scenario will be how it plays out year after year after year;  every year, there will be a big percentage wise stockpile of 1.5 yr old bucks in the population thereby skewing the postseason age structure to lower age animals AND over the long run you will get no better recruitment into the upper age classes which ALL of the research tells us.

Another one of the "big" things you are missing is that in most Eastern US states , the bulk of the buck harvest occurs AFTER breeding season;  so, at least in these situations the age structure of the population is not as bad going into the breeding season as it is here with the APR;  another crucial component that somebody in their research failed to understand about adapting these APR's to our population.

Once again, you did increase the amount of bucks in the population this year, I have no doubt about that, but, you did it at the expense of causing major havoc to the postseason age of the buck makeup of he populaition;  and, all the research says that these additional bucks will just get harvested the next year, with just a very few making it to 3.5 yr old;

This is WHY the biologist were against this whole scheme.......it permanantly skews the age class lower for breeding season

You could have fixed this whole thing in these units by a little patience and being a little quicker on some management;  you got two horrible winter losses in a row;  so, it is not a mystery why things are bad;

instead of doing a knee jerk reaction like APR's you could have instantly eliminated doe tags the first year and every year since;  and, put a sunset 2 or 3 yr restriction on the late general season;  you would have protected all the does and protected some bucks;  and, the whole thing could have been better fairly quickly with just a little patience; 

instead, you have done permanent damage to the herd with a rule that will never get changed;

you do not understand what you have uncorked................you will never get this rule changed............because when you want it changed, people like Maverick are going to throw a fit........

is this APR going to destroy the NE whitetail herd??  no, it will be fine, but, you will do damage to it through this regulation, and, will end up with a herd that spits out a bunch of 2.5 yr old bucks to harvest while at the same time causing breeding problems and, a long term damage to the 4.5 yr old population, with most likely, a loss of the late season and a 9 day hunt.

EVERY APR that has been put in this state was supposed to be "temporary".........I have yet to see one of them repealed.......maybe you and your landowner buddies do have the WDFW wrapped around your finger and can get rid of it in 5 yrs;  I hope so.........

[jdurham]

As an Idaho and Washington outfitter, I hear all the time how great the hunting is, I get phone calls from hunters in states like Arizona or Nevada all the time, "We just want to go hunting, we can't draw a tag in our state." and they book a trip in Idaho or Washington.

If muleyguy gets his way, then you all can all go to Idaho to hunt when you can't get a tag in Washington. Even with all the great deer herds those other states like Nev & AZ have, residents get to hunt roughly once every 2 to 6 years. Nevada hunters are some of my best clients becuase they rarely get to hunt at home.

Just food for thought before you jump on the limited-entry bandwagon.... some limited-entry is good, but it can really suck too.
   Very good point you made!  Not getting to hunt every year would be the pits!  When I miss a season they will be shoveling dirt on my face!

[Archeryoutfitters]

The idea is to let the baby's grow up and not shot them, letting them get wiser, so more live to that mature deer we all like to kill. and then their wisdom keeps them alive.

no data supports this thesis;  In PA, after 10 yrs of APR's the data shows that  most of the  bucks just get shot 1 yr later, with a few making it to 3.5 yr olds;   AND, that is with 60% of the hunter population shooting does, thereby  taking the pressure off of the bucks;  there has been no explosion of 4.5 yr old bucks and better in PA after 10 yrs, just like there hasn't been any explosion in 4.5 yr old bucks in the Palouse either with APR's.

Muley guy you act like because there is an Apr every mature buck will be ed and there will be nothing left but 1.5 year old bucks. Not true. According to you all the nice bucks we shot were 3.5 year olds. We saw some others the same size meaning theyll be 4.5 next year. Just cause there is an apr and hunters have to be concentrated on older bucks doesn't mean all the older bucks get shot. Not every one tags out and those bucks don't get older by being stupid. There's even plenty of 2.5 year olds that make it to be 3.5 years old this year. The Apr works. The herds wouldn't be able to handle any deer. And why would anybody wabt to hunt 2 out of three here's. A better percentage of hunters would probly tag out but I'm not out there to just tag out. Im out there to hunt.

where to start......at least you are coming to grips with the fact that the bucks you harvested are indeed 2.5 yr and 3.5 yr old bucks.......so that is progress.  The reason APR's will be so problematic in 117 and 121 vs the Palouse units is as follows:

In the Palouse, you have much lower hunting pressure then 117 and 121, and almost ALL of the whitetails are located on private ground;  plus you have NO general late season tag; 
In addition, ALL of the APR's in Eastern US have huge antlerless options with them;  we can't provide that option in this State;

All of the above I have stated is fact;  not specualtion;

In PA and the other Eastern States where they have had APR's for many years, the data is pretty straightforward;  75% of the bucks get shot at 2.5 yrs old;  and, the vast majority of the remaining 25% being shot when they are 3.5 yr olds;   Some states back there are seeing a very, very small increase in recruitment into the 4.5 yr old class;

BUT, this recruitment is entirely due to the fact that a large percentage of the harvest pressure is focused on antlerless;

In the Palouse, you have had APR's for 10 yrs;  there has not been some huge increase in harvest of 4.5 yr old bucks;  I hunted the Palouse for many years before the APR, and have hunted many years since, and know what is being harvested out of there now;  There are no increases in 4.5 yr old bucks coming out of the Palouse vs before the APR regardless of what you think you are seeing, and, in fact, my guess is that there are fewer of them then before the APR.

What is happening in the Palouse though because of the shortened season, and high amount of private ground, is that a few more bucks are making it out the 2.5 yr old class and into the 3.5 yr old class;  this is due to the lower hunter pressure, high amount of private ground, and short general season hunt in October.

I would completely expect that there would be few more 3.5 yr old bucks;  that makes sense given the season length, private ground, etc.  But, even with all this, there still is not any big increase in 4.5 yr old bucks;  so, the effects of the APR are muted somewhat;  still negative, but muted a little;  at least a few more bucks are getting to 3.5, but, still all of them getting shot.

Now lets contrast that with 117 and 121..................probably triple the hunting pressure, highly concentrated on public ground; and, to boot, a late general season during the rut, no antlerless option for general season tags........

the mature buck part of the population will be under HUGE amounts of pressure from this........especially on public ground........

I have two predictions and I am willing to publically state them:

1. You will never get rid of APR's in these units
2.  You will in the not too distant future lose the late general hunt.
3.  It will not improve the health or productivity of the herd

This is the legacy of EVERY APR in this State; there is no reason to expect it will be any different with this one

no data supports this thesis;   

I'm not sure if there is or isn't any date. but it is obvious that if a deer is a year older and out of that baby/stupid stage he will be a little wiser, I live in the woods its sad but i spend more time there than i do at my own home with my family, so to tell me there isn't no data? i would like to think us as hunter could use a little common sense and open our eyes and see what is really going on out there data is what a person puts on paper to benefit them or there interests, it is great to use as a tool but to live by it. every piece of the country is different and every GMU in this state is also different from one to the next trying to compare a GMU south of Spokane to one north of Spokane? open country w/ 1/4 the deer PSM as a fertile farm land valleys surrounded by thick timber and old clear-cuts?
A fact a 2-1/2 year old deer will be older and wiser and bigger and not as easily killed as a 1-1/2 year old that is still hanging out with mom and sister? this is a no brainier. and if we kill them at 2-1/2 well at least we got more meat out of it?
I have no problem with the deer herd we have hear now in these 2 units, but our predators are out of control and when you see spots still in late December there is some thing wrong, it hasn't been tried in NE Wa. so lets try and time will tell. 

[turkey slayer]

Very well said Archeroutfitter lets listen to the locals up in the NE they know there herds they see them every day.

[bearpaw]

Here are the buck/doe ratios from three WDFW "preseason" transect counts in 117 and 121:

Year 2003
121.....45/100
121.....19/100
117.....20/100
Average...28/100 in 2003

Year 2006
121-1...13/100
121-2...16/100
117......23/100
Average...17/100 in 2006

Year 2009
121-1...15/100
121-2...35/100
117.......7/100
Average...19/100 in 2009


Age structure of whitetail bucks brought through check stations in Colville District over 5 year period 2005-2009.

Year 2005.........100
Yearlings...........48...48%
Age 2.5.............24...24%
Age 3.5.............13...13%
Age 4.5..............5.....5%
Age 5.5+..........10...10%

Year 2006.........115   (last year with complete data)
Yearlings...........51...44%
Age 2.5.............33...29%
Age 3.5.............13...11%
Age 4.5.............10....9%
Age 5.5+............8.....7%

Year 2007.........64   (last year with complete data)
Yearlings...........22...35%
Age 2.5.............20...31%
Age 3.5.............13...20%
Age 4.5..............4.....6%
Age 5.5+............5.....8%

Year 2008.........41   (last year with complete data)
Yearlings...........18...44%
Age 2.5.............11...28%
Age 3.5..............6...15%
Age 4.5..............3.....8%
Age 5.5+............2.....6%

Year 2009.........35   (last year provided with partial data)
Yearlings............9...26%
Age 2.5.............
Age 3.5..............
Age 4.5..............
Age 5.5+............

I don't know if it's true, but I heard less than 20 bucks were checked this last season.

[Archeryoutfitters]

Very good info Dale, for our area. September 14th at smoky ridge meats they had 17 bears and 3 deer in for processing last season. said that's the is way out of there normal, it is usely  the other way around. I stopped in at the deer-park check station on Sunday evening after the opener and thay had only 1 doe and one buck checked in by that time

Those #s u posted make perfect sense to me % harvested has to do with the age and there intelligence or smarts of the deer.
I can tell you from all the trail cam's I run 50+ that there is far more mature bucks out there, than there is small ones, there just nocturnal for the most part. prob 3 or 4 to one  mature over yearlings by mature i mean 3-1/2 +

[bearpaw]

Right now there are so many predators that a fawn is very lucky to make it to adulthood.

I see in the new proposal they want to limit the fall bear hunt, restrict the number of cougar that can be taken by boot hunters, and make it harder to legally kill a coyote.