Muzzleloader elk

[MRuth87730]

First year going with the muzzleloader and I have 2 questions.
First I took a deer this year with my muzzleloader rite before elk opened and my Barnes spit fires didn’t work rite they would not expand when passing through the body of the deer. For every shot there was an entrance and an exit wound and a running deer. What can be done about this?
I also decided to skip early muzzle loader elk tell I got this solved, any advice about muzzleloader, late elk?

[scudmaster]

Copper bullets have inconsistent expansion on game.  With a Muzzle loader's lower velocity it becomes even less reliable.

I shot a bull this week with a Hornady .50 SST 300 gr with only a 100 gr charge.  The bullet performed perfectly.  Front end opened and caused a 1 to 1.5 inch diameter damage cavity just after entrance. The base stayed intact and   Was caught in the far side hide. 

I am going to bump up to three pellets as I would like a bit more penetration.  But expansion and tissue damage was excellent.  I am shooting it out of a 1:26 inch twist Rem 700ML.  Groups are around 2-3 inches at 100yds.  Good luck

[MRuth87730]

100 grains is what was used on the deer, shot was taken probably 30 yards away.
I imagine I just need to go with a different bullet. My buddy told me to lighten up the powder but if im going for an elk i imagine the 100grains is sufficient

[scudmaster]

Hum, as a general rule, the more velocity, the more reliable opening/expansion.  I would think more velocity (ie more powder) may help, not less. 

Bullet manufactures are getting really good at making bullets that expand reliably at any intended velocity, but solid copper bullets are still new enough, I am not sure they have them all worked out.  Many people say they have had great experience with them, but what I hear is inconsistent.  Many times I have heard of your situation of clean pass through with no internal damage.  I can recommend the terminal ballistics of the SST,  hopefully it will shoot from your gun.

[colockumelk]

Oddly enough me and BLRman had this same discussion.  Two years ago when buckmaster_wa shot his bull with the Hornady 300grain. SST it stayed perfectly intact including the polymere tip.  Wondering if this was isolated or not.  I have used the 250 grain version on deer with great success. 

We concluded that testing would be required. 

[scudmaster]

Hum?  How far, what charge, where did you hit the bull?  The only thing I can think of is that there was no substantial tissue or bone struck. 

[colockumelk]

The buckmaster_wa will have to confirm but I believe it was 20yds away. Charge was 100grains.  The bull was quartered to him.  Entered through the shoulder both lungs and guts and embedded in the offside hip. 

Like I said my 250 grains do fine on deer.  Of course I have also never retrieved a bullet either.  (All pass throughs). And what works on a deer in the ML world might not work on an elk. 

The all lead version that has a polumere tip of the SST worked great and I might go back to that.  As said I'll be doing some testing.

[whacker1]

I have had good luck with the Barnes Expander MZ, which is a full hollow point with no polymer tip.  I have seen more posts on here about these type of issues and wonder if it takes too long from initial impact to shed the Polymer tip and thus only starts to expand on the exit if not hitting bone. This isn't usually an issue with Modern Firearm, but wonder if the slower velocity of the muzzleloader and the bigger Polymer tip in these larger calibers play a part in your issues.

Clockum, it is crazy to hear that the bullet didn't exit and still retained the tip.  Wow

[colockumelk]

I'm wondering if with 100grains it doesn't have enough velocity to expand.  I am sure those bullets were designed for a 150 grain charge.  problem for me is I get tje best groups at 100 grains and tje 150 grain charge had a bad group.  I'm wondering if the 250 grain bullet has enough velocity to do its job and open up.  I'm a little cautious however to shoot that light of a muzzle loader bullet at an elk.  Like I said I'll do some testing if I hunt muzzle elk next year and in the end might go back to the all lead version  they worked great for the few years I used them.  I'm interested in those Barnes whacker.  They worked good for you?

[scudmaster]

With a lighter bullet, the velocity would increase, thus the expansion would increase. I would stick to accuracy over speed.  A fast miss won't kill an animal, a well placed slow hit will still get the job done.
Rifle bullet expansion is generally complete by the time the bullet fully enters the body and polymer tips help speed this expansion as they increase the front cross section of the bullet faster than copper and helps the flight ballistics.  But this does not take more than a couple of inches. What I don't know is how this applies to ML bullets. I am still really puzzled by buckmaster_wa's experience. colockumelk do you know the twist rate of the buckmaster_wa's rifle?  twist helps load the extensional forces on the bullet, so it would be interesting to know if that contributed as well.

I used Precision rifle two years ago and they performed as advertized.  They are a harder compound and designed for pass through the enhance bleeding  At 134 yrs it passed clean though. It was a high shot and hit solid meat and spine with little expansion but a clean exit. 
Definite testing needed, but I would suggest meat and bone, not just water jugs. 

[whacker1]

for reference, I am shooting 70 grains of fffg 777 loose powder in my Rem 700  in .54 cal.  Expander MZ in 275 grain bullet.  I have shot more powder, but lose accuracy.  I am playing with going to ffg instead and going up in powder, but I won't be using it this year, so I haven't shot it much since last year.  I also bought some in 325 grain option, but haven't shot them yet.

Scudmaster - While I understand what you set about the Polymer tips helping speed the expansion as they increase the front cross section.  This sounds great in theory, but all of the problems that have been associated with the Barnes bullets have come from the spitfire series, and not from expander series.  I am not saying it is the problem, but it appears to be a coincidence worth exploring.

[mrgoodwrench]

I've had good luck with three triple seven pellets, and 338gr Powerbelt Platinums.  The bull I killed last week at 40 yards went through the rib on the entrance side, destroyed the lungs and through a rib on the exit, I recovered the bullet at the exit side hide.  Same basic thing with last year's bull in the late season, but that bullet was found in the rib meat on the exit side.  I haven't weighed this years bullet, last years weighed in at 311gr.  When I used to use the all lead powerbelts penetration wasn't as good, but they were only 295gr bullets.  All from a Knight Bighorn and TC Black Diamond XR.

[colockumelk]

I would love to use 150 grains bit my groups sucked. At 100yds it was a six inch group.  When I went down to 100 grains my group tightened to about 1".  So using 3 pellets isn't an option.  The precision quality bullets that are all lead with a polymer tip worked awsome migjt have to go back to them.

 Whacker ive heard barmes bullets causes.alot of copper fowlimg.  have you noticed this.

Mr. Goodwrench did the Platinums mushroom at all or did tjey keep their shape.  curious to know what tje bullet was like.

[scudmaster]

Whacker1,  I agree totally, Copper bullets change the knowledge base.  Polymer may not help with the lower velocity copper expansion.  And with muzzy's there are so many more variables.  It would be interesting to see more independent research.

[huntnnw]

More speed with all lead is not good..there is a fine line with to fast and causing the bullet to pancake on impact...with all copper faster is better...if you can keep good groups and actually burn 150 gr of powder.  I tried the precision polymer tip 450gr bullet years ago and a hornady great plains 460gr bullet out of my T/C blackdiamond with 100 gr of T7 the hornady in my gun held a much tighter group and was 12" higher than the 450gr.  I use the barnes 300gr MZ with 90g T7 this year and had excellent results at 80 yards and 10 yards as I was able to recover both bullets..both mushroomed perfect