Dead in her tracks?

[Coastal_native]

I had a pretty interesting weekend.  I was out scouting for elk almost every night last week trying to find some elk in preparation for taking my brother out to try to help him fill his tag.  I finally got into a herd Thursday night that had 4 branch bulls chasing each other around waiting for the last few unbred cows to come back into estrus (two of them were dandies and not too friendly with each other).  I'd spooked them a little bit on my way out that night, so Friday night I went back out to make sure they'd still be there for us Saturday morning. 

After walking about a 1/3 mile down a decomissioned road system, I found where they had came out on the road and milled around for awhile.  To my surprise I walked right up on dead cow laying on the road.  It had died probably the night before as I could see all the fresh tracks from the herd around it.  I did a pretty thorough inspection of the body and couldn't find any bullet holes or scratches.  It had a little blood dripping out of the nostrils and a bad case of diarrhea, but that was it.  I called my buddy who is a wildlife bio for our tribe and he came out and performed a necropsy on it and took some tissue samples from some of the organs.  He skinned it out from nose to tail and couldn't find any bullets holes, bruising, or obvious trauma.  Pretty rare to find a seemingly "natural" mortality so fresh...chances are I seen that cow on the hoof the night before. 

As you can see from the pic, it looked as if the cow fell over and kicked it's hooves a few times to try to get up...and then expired.  It was a little stiff, but didn't have any bad smell, hair slip, or sunken eyes.  I'm pretty confident no one had been in that area for the last two weeks.  I'll post the results if anything interesting comes back from the lab.

As for the hunting...I found the elk again Friday night after dealing with the cow incident and then watched my brother blow about 3 different shot opportunities Saturday.  I forget sometimes how much longer it takes to get comfortable with a shot when you're still learning how to hunt.

[cle elum bowhunter]

No trauma to the body anywhere when she was skinned out?  That black tarry stool looks like internal bleeding.  Any chance she was struck by a vehicle somewhere in the area and then died from the internal hemoraging at that location?  If not, then I would have to go with the Hollywood answer and say something like Eboli.  Will be interesting to see what the Necro report indicates.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Maybe one of those Bulls got a little too rough with her ? 

[Hornseeker]

Thats Wierd!!! IF there was no obvious bruising after it being skinned, you could throw out the vehicle collision.. hmmm... Over here in MT the whitetail died like that this summer, blood out nose/mouth... no trauma, it was from EHD/Blue Tongue...

Wierd.

[bucklucky]

Interesting.

[quadrafire]

Maybe one of those Bulls got a little too rough with her ? 

maybe a head injury from those frisky bulls fighting??  That is wierd though. Don't think I would eat it just in case

[runamuk]

Wonder if her lungs blew up.....happens in horses sometimes they run too hard then their lungs literally blow apart they bleed out their nose and fall over dead 

will be interesting to hear the necropsy resluts

[Recurve-Elk]

that's a bummer right there!  Hopefully it isn't some kind of disease.

[pianoman9701]

Animals do die of natural causes. Cancer, lung infections, all kinds of stuff that we die from, too. It is odd to find in the wild, though. Usually, by the time we see one, it's all just bones.

[Special T]

i'd just like to find out the report results... thanks Coastal, interesting read.

[colockumelk]

Interesting read. Tba.is Coastal keep us updated.

[PlateauNDN]

That's very interesting indeed and can't wait to hear the results.

[dreamunelk]

Most plausible would be an injury sustained from rutting activity.  However, necropsy would have shown the trauma.  The dark specs  on her make me wonder if she had a parasite load(tics?).  Was this checked?  If so it would indicate that her immune system was stressed.  What did the bone marrow look like in the femur?  A little early for clostridium spp.  but, I would not rule out.  What did the kidney look like?
Could be anything.  Sometime animals die for no apparent reason.  This does happen more than people realize. 

[colockumelk]

Dr. House could find out.

[724wd]

i'd guess the black spots are flies.  they don't waste any time when something dead hits the ground 

[nontypical176]

My buddy was tracking a herd few years back during early muzzy.  Right in the middle of the path was a dead yearling, still warm.  He  hadn't spooked the elk and hadn't been tracking them long, it was opening day early in the morning and he just happened upon fresh tracks.  He said the elk wasn't very big, looked like it just curled up and went to sleep, looked healthy other than being dead, no blood or nothing.  He reported it and showed it to a sherrif that afternoon.    It was in the Ryderwood unit on the west side close to houses, and they never did figure out cause of death.  I suspect aliens.

[colockumelk]

WTF Coastal where are the results. I am inpatient and demand instant results. Hopefully you are a better investigator than a hunter otherwise were gonna ne here awhile.

[runamuk]

WTF Coastal where are the results. I am inpatient and demand instant results. Hopefully you are a better investigator than a hunter otherwise were gonna ne here awhile.

  I am not impatient I will simply forget about it if too much time passes my brain cant remember much for long these days  and I am curious if they found anything mainly because I am sort of fascinated by this stuff....

[Coastal_native]

pathology results will take a little while.  Discussions with wildlife veterinarians and other experienced wildlife experts suggest clostridium, but the tests will not prove that.  I believe clostridium is a bacteria found in elk, but i don't know much about it.  Perhaps Dreamunelk can enlighten us when he logs back on.

[runamuk]

pathology results will take a little while.  Discussions with wildlife veterinarians and other experienced wildlife experts suggest clostridium, but the tests will not prove that.  I believe clostridium is a bacteria found in elk, but i don't know much about it.  Perhaps Dreamunelk can enlighten us when he logs back on.

clostridium is a pathogen found in sheep as well and it is usually vaccinated for...I watched a young llama die from clostridium once it was a rather awful thing to watch...the vet did ultimately put the animal down but it basically rolled over and couldnt get up in the middle of a eating a meal.  It occurs in soil and can be picked up by other animals....

try this for a rundown on the most common form in livestock and exotics

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/general/resrpt1998/clostridium.html

oh and other clostridiums would be like tetanus and I think botulism

[dirty24d]

If i was a gambling man and i am i would put my money on this:

Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease
 It is of concern especially in the central and southern counties of Illinois. The last major outbreaks of EHD occurred in 1998 and 2007. Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease is caused by a virus that is spread by biting midges or gnats. The disease is often fatal to deer, causing fever and severe internal bleeding. Infected deer are often found dead in or near water. The impact on deer populations is not predictable. Outbreaks depend upon weather conditions, which influence the size of the midge population and subsequent disease transmission. The disease is not known to be a human health concern.

[dirty24d]

EHD poses ...



no risk to humans, according to Dr. O’Keefe. Other wild ruminants also are susceptible, including elk, mule deer, pronghorn antelope and bighorn sheep. Domestic animals such as livestock may become infected, but rarely exhibit signs of the disease or develop serious illness.


EHD is spread by biting midges, or gnats. The midges transmit the virus from infected to uninfected animals as they feed. There currently is neither a vaccine nor an effective treatment for the disease. “The only viable way to control the virus is to control the insect population,” Dr. O’Keefe said. “Short of spraying for insects, there’s nothing much a landowner can do to prevent the disease other than wait for cold weather.”


EHD outbreaks typically begin in late summer or early fall and end with an insect-killing frost. The deaths this year were first reported in late August. Officials believe the dry summer in central and southern Illinois, where the cases are concentrated, has contributed to the current outbreak. “When shallow ponds and creek beds dry up, conditions are good for hatches of disease-carrying insects,” Dr. Paul Shelton, Illinois Department of Natural Resources Forest Wildlife Program manager, said. “Then, as summer progresses, deer tend to become more concentrated around watering holes, facilitating the spread of the disease.”


EHD was first identified in 1955 when several hundred white-tailed deer died in both Michigan and New Jersey. Since then, cases have been documented throughout much of the United States and southern Canada. The last significant outbreak in Illinois occurred in 2004, although a few cases normally are observed in any given year.


Symptoms develop about seven days after exposure to the virus and include loss of appetite, excessive salivation, muscle weakness, lameness, depression and a rapid pulse and respiration rate. In very acute cases of the disease, animals enter a “shock-like” state, become prostrate and die within eight to 36 hours after the onset of symptoms.


Farmers with ill deer should not assume the animals are infected with EHD, even if they are exhibiting classic symptoms. A veterinarian should be called to give the deer a check-up. If the animal dies, the Illinois Department of Agriculture’s animal disease laboratories in Centralia and Galesburg will perform a post-mortem exam to determine the cause of death. The fee for this exam ranges from $40 to $100, depending upon the level of testing that is required.


Landowners or hunters who witness a deer exhibiting signs of EHD, especially near a creek or pond, can assist agency efforts to monitor the extent of the disease by reporting it to IDNR Deer Project Manager Tom Micetich at (309) 543-3316, extension 231.


Source:  Illinois Department of Natural Resources,  dnr.state.il.us



 
 

[PlateauNDN]

So...did she taste good or not Coastal?

[724wd]

So...did she taste good or not Coastal?

   think that one'd have to lay!      

[deerhunter_98520]

Dr. House could find out.

i just happened to be watching that show while reading this thread 

[dreamunelk]

Gee Thanks C.N.

“Clostridal Infections

Clostridium spp.  Are toxin-producing anaerobic bacteria that cause a variety of infections in animals, including livestock and wild ruminants (Timoney et al. 1988).  These bacteria are common in soil and intestinal tracts of animals.  Clostridal diseases occur sporadically in elk and are not considered important to populations (Thorne et al 2002).”
One supposedly “uncommon form of enterotoxemia – pulpy kidney disease – caused by Clostridium perfringens type D, has been reported in red deer in New Zealand (Haigh and Hudson 1993).  It often follows abrupt change of diet, especially to concentrates, in domestic livestock.  Clinical signs are acute onset of diarrhea, depression and loss of appetite.  Animals dying acutely may have few gross lesions.  Vascular congestion, foci of hemorrhage on the heart and increased pericardial fluid may be present.  The pulpy kidney designation refers to the rapid decomposition that follows death due to enterotoxemia, rather than a direst manifestation of clostridal infection (Thorne et al 2002).”

The above information is quoted from:
Thorne, E. T., E. S. Williams, W. M. Samuel, and T. P Kistner.  2002. Diseases and Parasites. Pages 351-387. in: Toweill, D. E. and J. W. Thomas, eds. North American Elk: Ecology, Behavior and Management. Smithsonian Institution Press. WA. D.C.

Important to realize there are many species in the Clostridium family.  So it is difficult to do it justice.  Because of rapid decomposition it is often difficult to determine if death was caused by a Clostridium species.  C. perfringens type D is often suspected in elk mortalities on the west coast.   It is often associated with late spring mortalities when elk switch from a primarily browse diet to a grass diet during green up.  As often happens we can get several green ups in the spring.  This is really relevant to elk that feed in pastures or hayfields were cool season grasses grow.   An early warming trend will cause grass to grow and elk will start to feed more heavily on it.  During this process the bacteria in the gut changes.  If the weather turns suddenly cold again they will have to change to a primarily browse diet and thus the bacteria will change again.  These changes can be hard on an elk and if the animal immune system is already stressed it can become further distressed leading to conditions that could create an environment where the C. Perfringens can multiply to the point that it will kill the elk.  There is also some evidence that indicate that amount of usage and certain weather conditions can increase the amount of C. Perfringens can multiply in the soil.
That said this is normally associated with late winter or spring.  I am not aware of any suspected case in Western Wa that occurred outside of this time period.  However, it is so poorly understood that I would not rule it out.  Also could be another of the Clostridal family that caused it or something else unrelated.

Here is a hypothetical example of a suspect C. Perfringens mortality. Herd of elk seen in field a 0600 feeding and acting normally.  0900 notice one elk acting strange with difficulty walking, hunched up like it has a stomach problem.  May or may not have the runs.  0930 elk falls over dead.  1230 bios arrive and perform necropsy.  Bios note pulpy kidney and send samples to lab.  Lab results inconclusive but suspect C. perfringens.  Unfortunately the dang things die and decompose pretty quickly.  Actually a little more involved and technical but I think you get the jist.
Important to realize that the test may be inconclusive but, make a suggestion.  As stated before there are many species of bacteria that cause illnesses in elk.  For the most part the only confirmed cases are on elk farms.  In the wild it is next to impossible to recover an elk in time.  What C.N. found is extremely interesting because of the location and that he was in the area previously.  People often find an elk that has died and been chewed on by some critter.  We immediately blame this predator for the kill when we really do not know.   That is why in mortality studies you will often see mortality broken down by human and natural with a breakdown of the natural. With natural mortality you always have to take it with a grain of salt.  Only so much info can be gathered from a partial eaten of decomposed body unless you are on C.S.I.   

Well this is a somewhat poor explanation but, it would take days to do it justice because it is very complex and poorly understood.  Overall it is considered not to be a herd limiting disease at this time.  Does not mean that it will not affect a group or elk or several groups occupying an area say for example during the winter.  Now there is a lot more involved here that I am leaving out such as ways it can be transferred between elk or other critters.  Overall this is something that is being look at by multiple agencies (Tribal, State, federal, and other) and there is as suspected concern because it is not fully understood.  Because these are wild animals I suspect that while knowledge will increase there will always be questions.  To me the big question if does prove to be a clostridal not associated with a wound is why in the fall?  I should add that both tetanus and botulism are from the clostridal family.  So yup have to be careful when pointing the finger at one of that crazy family.

Here are a few links to follow.  One I recommend everyone look is from the Michigan DNR.  Think about this the next time you here of someone dumping truckloads of bait to attract elk.
 http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26508--,00.html
Another interesting read
http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/general/resrpt1998/clostridium.html
This one is a little on the painful to read side
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/clostridia.html

Now that i have read this again I see lots of room for improvement but, have cold and need to go to bed.  So maybe more later.

[dirty24d]

Dude you just blew my mind. 

That was a great read thanks for the break down!!

[Coastal_native]

Gee Thanks C.N.

   Didn't mean to volunteer you, but I know where to go when I have questions.  Thanks for the breakdown.  Do you think this last weather pattern we witnessed could have played a part, if it was indeed clostridium related? (lots of rain followed by warm dry weather.)  We definitely witnessed a green up in this area (Bakers).

[seth30]

After your guy skinned it out, you should have set over it and blast some yotes Great read Coastal!

[dreamunelk]

Gee Thanks C.N.

   Didn't mean to volunteer you, but I know where to go when I have questions.  Thanks for the breakdown.  Do you think this last weather pattern we witnessed could have played a part, if it was indeed clostridium related? (lots of rain followed by warm dry weather.)  We definitely witnessed a green up in this area (Bakers).

Well it has been a strange year but, even though we had some hot dry weather I think there were likely lots of grasses and forbs available in the riparian areas so it is still likely that she was eating a pretty large amount of grasses and forbs.  I have not been to Bakers in years so really do not know what it looks like.  I assume the prairie looks pretty much the same.  The new clear cuts around it have some more groceries in them and likely a new cut or two.  The rest is likely reprod.  Even with the weather I would argue that overall forage conditions may not be that bad.  However without looking at it I can only guess.  You are out there, what do you think?  Are you seeing signs of over grazing?  I know in the big "M" things looked Okay, in fact i found it encouraging.

 One question I have is what was the marrow fat like?  That can be an indicator or forage conditions or that something else was wrong with her.  As you know you cannot accurately tell the nutritional condition of an elk by just looking at them.  I have seen far too many elk and deer that appeared healthy only to find that they have Zero body fat and little to no marrow fat.

One thing to point out that I did not make clear earlier is there are about 100 types of Clostridium species and many can affect elk and other species.  And since some species occur naturally in their  system it can be real tricky and difficult to accurately diagnose.  What did the kidney look like?  The toxic reaction and the resulting effect on the kidneys will make them look especially nasty.   At this point the most focus is on C. perifrens type D.  C. novyi type D could be the culprit. However to my knowledge it has not be documented on the west coast and very unlikely it would end up on bakers first.  But, you never know.  I do know it was suspected at one time some deaths in S.W. Wa several years ago. Can’t remember if they were cattle or elk.  Key word here is suspected.

I do not know the age of the cow, but in the picture she appears to younger.  Could be she has just always been on the week side and if the conditions are a little on the bad side she just could not make it.  Our Rosey’s really need to pack on the groceries in the spring, summer, and fall to make it through the winter.   If you are a subordinate cow you are not going to get the good stuff.

To answer your question and quit my ramblings, it sure is possible.  While I and others have come across deer and elk at all times of the year that have died for no apparent reason, to my knowledge it has never been attributed to Clostridium.   Usually it is suspected in deaths visible to people.  So in a pasture or field where they have been concentrating and usually over grazed.  Late winter and early spring is when the most elk are concentrated so this builds the hypothesis that this is where it occurs. The bottom line is what you found and the fact you were able to have someone respond promptly could be very interesting.  My self and others have talked a lot on how much it may occur in other more natural areas.  So the test results could prove fascinating

One thing everyone needs to remember is that animals die all the time.  While they are far tougher than we are, they often die from things that are easily treatable.   I know how important the elk are to the Quinault’s and hope it is not causing too much concern at this time.   Time to get alarmed is when you start to find them all over from multiple groups.  I think a little extra time following that group would be advisable until you get the results back.

[500 long]

I'm new to this site. Are you a biologist or something. You are certainly better at typing than I am.  I find it hard to imagine it's malnourished having lived in that jungle out there. There is food everywere. Please respond to me pm or otherwise.
ps I've never done pm. Will it alert me?

[Special T]

It will be in your messages tab with a # click on it and it will show you the message.

[dreamunelk]

No PM in box, Let just say "or something".  I am educated in environmental sciences and try to keep up on the literature.

I find it hard to imagine it's malnourished having lived in that jungle out there. There is food everywere.

That is a common misconception.  All forage is not equal and not all plants are forage to elk.

This actually another very complicated subject so I will be very brief.  Most plants have lignin in them or cellulose.  Some have very little and others a lot.  Pick up a piece of grass and than grab a piece of salal.  Feel the difference? Most plants especially shrubs have secondary defensive compounds that are toxic or digestion inhibitors to animals.  These things affect how efficiently an animal can digest it.   Next time you eat an orange take a piece of the peel and fold it and squeeze it next to a lit lighter.  You will see a little flash.  That is a secondary compound that makes the peel not taste so good.  Forage is often measured in digestibility.  Basically what percentage is digestible.  This can then be related to digestible energy.  Basically the lower the digestible energy the poorer quality the forage is. Does not mean that the poor forage does not benefit them in some way but they need good forage to survive.  Try eating only ice burg lettuce for a week or two.  What is good depends on the species and the niche it occupies.  So I am staying on elk.  Some plants are only available at certain time of the year while others that are present year round.  The year round species may be lower in digestible energy in the winter and higher in the spring.  So when you see all the green you have to ask what is functionally available.  Think of it this way.  You harvest an elk, have no way of storing it, so you start eating it.  Well a lot will go bad and thus is not functionally available to you as potential energy.  Also you can not survive on elk alone.  Yeah, I know it sucks.  Like you, elk need a variety of plants to get all the necessary nutrients. 

Elk can not adjust the amount of forage eaten by the quality.  In other words increase intake to get more energy.  They can only eat so much and then they have to ruminate.  They can only ruminate so long and then the forage passes. The digestibility of the forage will equate to how much the forage will benefit them.  So if the have to fill up on poor forage they will expend more energy digesting it then they will receive from it.

Now to confuse things.  Their ability to digest/ consume food actually declines during the winter and have adapted to catabalize body tissue during the  winter.  So for them to lose 10% body mass over winter is perfectly normal and will not affect them one bit. 

Well that should get you thinking.  Feel free to ask some more questions.

One last thing.  We hunters really need to understand more the importance of forage to the species we pursue.  To often we blame predators, other hunters, or bad management on low numbers.  When the greatest limiting factor is food.  A cow elk can not come into estrus if she is not a certain nutritional level.  This is one reason why we see some cows get bred later.  simply put they need another month to get up to the right body condition.  Also one reason why you do not see one calf for every cow.

Here is an interesting link:
http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/range556/Appl_BEHAVE/projects/toxins-wildlife.htm

[JimmyHoffa]

I guess it would depend on the part of big M, but I haven't seen any sign of overgrazing.  Found a dead cow that had been eaten by a cougar.  There were plenty of small grassy patches as well as alder shoots.  Maybe it ate a bad fungus and took a oneway trip, more than half of the species of magic mushrooms can be found in the coastal rainforests.

[500 long]

Appreciate the reply. Very informative, also the link.  But it is still hard to imagine that in that rain forest there is not enough good food. I have seen a herd of hundreds in a field in the town of Forks for weeks. I guess there's a lot to be said for good grass.

[dreamunelk]

Around Forks the elk take advantage of some well managed pastures and airport.  Also a little less predation.  Big difference between an agricultural and forest environment.

[seth30]

Could she have gotten into some poison?

[mrgoodwrench]

Good post, I find a few dead ones a year at work, most from poor shots, but some weird ones too.

This past January I jumped a small bull out of his bed along one of my roads, he fell down when he tried to walk off, then walked about 50 yards down a ridge and just looked at me.  I left him alone after I checked the bed for blood.

About 3 weeks later, after some substantial westside snow I was in the same area, I found him dead in the middle of the road and mostly gone.  He was about ten yards from that bed I saw him in before.  I don't think he ever left that ridge.  The really strange thing is that his antlers never fully developed, they were stunted in growth, and very soft.  I assumed he must have been sick and malnourished for months.  I'll have to try and find a picture of that rack for you all.