bow draw weight for elk?

[OltHunter]

this will be my first season bowhunting, i drew the multiseason elk and always wanted to try bow hunting for them.  here's what i was curious about.  i got a 60-70 hoyt magnatec xt2000 with a 70% let off.  now i initially had it set up for 70 pound pull, at 32.5 inches.  i could shoot field points out to 50 yards with good success but once i put the broadheads on it seemed like they would curve to the side or sink down, i couldn't really get a good pattern.  now after a shoulder injury, i knocked it down to 60 pounds, and was out shooting today and i could pattern my broadheads like my field points, they flew straight and i didn't have any problems.  it also seemed like i was getting the same penetration through my "black hole" target as i did with the 70 pound pull.  could this be true?

now i know that i should shoot a bow setup that is the most accurate but i want enough energy and power to ethically kill an elk.  so i was wondering if a 60 pound pull at 32.5 inches with 125 grain thunderheads and easton gamegetter 300 aluminum shafts (the heavy ones) will do the job?  i think i'm going to wait a little until my shoulder gets better and move up a pound at a time until i can get the most pull and the most accuracy.  i'm a 6'7" 220 ex pro ball player, so i'm not over drawing and really don't feel any difference between a 60 and a 70 pull, so i was curious if there is a speed that broadheads wont be as accurate or is it just a setup issue, i.e. nock point, rest, etc., that could cause this problem.  any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated.  thanks in advance.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Hitting the right spot is most important.  You'll be fine at 60 lbs.

[boneaddict]

He is correct about 60 pounds.  I'm not even going to pretend to understand the relationship between shooting broadheads and target points.  Its a real pain to practice all summer then realize your broadheads don't shoot anywhere close to your target points.  It does have to do with poundage, spine of the arrow, selection of broadheads etc.  i try to choose broadheads that shoot the same as my target points.  That personal preference thing.  There are thousands of articles out there on how to tune your arrows and broadheads.  I don't understand any of them.  Keep shooting and soon it will come together.  I'm winging mine at 85 pounds.  Both traditional and compound, with a %45 let off I believe.  I've never shot anything with the let off you are using.  I can almost imagine that might have something to do with it, but don't know for sure.  I'm just thinking of the torque?

[funkster]

 This is a touchy subject so I will approach with caution but here is the basics that I have found to hold true.The more poundage equals faster arrow speed, which intern equals you can shoot a heavier arrow and still shoot pretty flat for further shots(40 yards up)which is key here out west. Kinetic energy is really the most important number for taking big game animals. To find your bows kinetic energy you start with this simple formula, arrow speed squared x arrow weight divided by 450,240.This will give you your bows kinetic energy in ft lbs. I know opinion's will differ as to what the lowest number should be. From the research I found, alot of pro's say no less than 52lbs of kinetic energy for hunting elk,bear..ect.  I shoot a Hoyt Vetrix with a 30 inch draw set at 77lbs shooting a  477 grain easton axis arrow at 298 ft per second for 94 ft lbs of kinetic energy. It will blow an arrow almost through anything you can find in the back yard 2x6,3/4 inch plywood,phone books and even a tire. Don't get me wrong here, I agree 100% there is nothing to substitute good shot placement which does not need high poundage. However I feel things don't always go as planned especially in the field and I wan't to know if I hit the shoulder blade of an elk by accident it will go through.

BTW,if you are having problems with accuracy switching from field points to broadheads, I would suggest switching over to bohning blazer vanes and slick trick broadheads. You will be amazed as to how close they fly to field points and how they need little if any tuning.

[OltHunter]

thanks for the input, i was checking my arrows and noticed that the arrows that had the broadheads blades in the same position as the fletching flew a lot more consistent.  i practiced a little this weekend using just one arrow at a time and shooting one for about 5 shots.  the shoulder felt alright so i decided to up the poundage.  i had blades that lined up perfectly with the vanes and other that were inbetween the vanes, and i noticed that all the arrows flew true at 60 pounds but while i upped the poundage and thus the speed the ones that weren't lined up would curve off course while the others stayed pretty true.  as of right now i'm pretty sure i found my problem.  it seems like the more lined up the blades are with the vanes the better they flew at faster speeds.  i don't know if this is common knowledge or if the alignment doesn't really matter, but it seemed to help me. thanks again

[boneaddict]

What you are doing is basically how I figured mine out.  Then make sure you  mark where the blades are and put fresh blades in in the fall, or fresh points in the same position.

[General Disarray]

My question is are you 7' 2" or just part gorilla? 32.5" draw length or is that the length of your arrow?

[boneaddict]

Here are my statistics....I'm 6'5 and I shoot a 31 inch draw, and even with an overdraw, I shoot 29 inch arrows.  It sure helps with speed when winging them sharp sticks.  My longbow I shoot max length arrows, which are 31 inches I believe.

[Crunchy]

I bet the number one reason for broadheads and field tips not shooting together is an improperly tuned bow.  I had the same problem in the past, but have done all the proper tuning to my bow and no difference at all.

[jackelope]

Here are my statistics....I'm 6'5 and I shoot a 31 inch draw, and even with an overdraw, I shoot 29 inch arrows.  It sure helps with speed when winging them sharp sticks.  My longbow I shoot max length arrows, which are 31 inches I believe.

I always thought an overdraw was illegal in WA. way back when when i used to shoot a bow in new york, i had an overdraw, which is nice because it allows you to shoot shorter stiffer arrows when you are a lanky 30.5" draw like me. at least that was back when there wasn't no such thing as carbon arrows.

[Machias]

Nope overdraws are legal, here are the restrictions concerning arrow length and weight.  "It is illegal to hunt big game animals with any arrow, including broadhead, measuring less than 20 inches in length, weighing less than 6 grains per pound of draw weight with a minimum arrow weight of 300 grains, and having sharp broadhead blade or blades less than seven-eighths inches wide."

60 pounds with those arrows will blow right though a properly hit elk.  Do yourself and the sport of bowhunting a big favor though, in hunting conditions don't shoot over 40-45 yards, and in most instances on deer that is even pushing it.  Makes no difference how good you are on stationary target in practice.  You can be dead on and hit EXACTLY where you were aiming when you released the arrow, doesn't mean the animal will still be standing there in the same angle and spot as when you released.  If you want to take those 50 yard and beyond shots you should take up muzzle loading, IMO.

[jackelope]

not sure why i ever thought they were illegal...maybe because of the weight restrictions.

[boneaddict]

I agree with you about shooting distance Machias.  I don't ever intend to shoot anything over 40 yards.  In fact 30 yards or less is where I like to be shooting.  I'm sure my bow has the capabilities to shoot at 80 yards, but I think thats un-ethical.  In fact, I'm not sure I've killed anything at over 30 yards or have taken a shot at anything over 30.

I hope overdraws aren't illegal.  That would be BAD since I just admitted to having one on my bow.

[jackelope]

olthunter...how is the black hole target holding up to the broadheads?
i bought one too and it seems to do ok with the field tips but i haven't shot any broadheads into it.
seems to be an ok target for the $$ and the small amount i'll be shooting at home.

[OltHunter]

general disarray....i believe my arrows are 31.5, and i wouldn't say that i have gorilla portions, i read a guide that said divide your wingspan by 2.5 as a starting point and it gave me inbetween 31.5 and 32 and drawing it felt the most comfortable and gave me the best anchor point at 32.5 so i stuck with it. 

i have four pins, at 10,20,30,40.  i'm proud of my hunting ethics and standards and know that it can be done but i wouldn't ever shoot past 45 yards.  i wasn't trying to look for more speed and power so i could shoot farther. 

jackelope.....yeah it does great with target points and i would say the target is holding up alright with broadheads.  i would say one spot can take about 5 hits before there's a little bit of a chunk out but I have never had an arrow go through and they have to hit in the exact same place.  some would go all the way to the vanes and stop.  i would definitely recommend trying to move spots on the target around, but with that said it has taken a beating with broadheads and is holding up.  usually when i pull out an arrow it takes a portion of the plastic with it, about 2 inches long. i've probably shot about 30-40 times into the center of the target with broadheads.. 

[General Disarray]

general disarray....i believe my arrows are 31.5, and i wouldn't say that i have gorilla portions, i read a guide that said divide your wingspan by 2.5 as a starting point and it gave me inbetween 31.5 and 32 and drawing it felt the most comfortable and gave me the best anchor point at 32.5 so i stuck with it.  

Seriously, unless you're pushing 7 foot with arms that drag knuckles on the ground I would go into a PRO-SHOP and get measured.... I'm 6'2" and shoot a 29" draw very comfortably.  I shoot a lot of archery and have seen one shooter with a 32" draw length that could actually shoot it properly.  He's a big guy with long arms and knows what he is doing.  He was a top archer in the country for a while but now just concentrates on making Trophy Taker rests and sights.  If you're anchoring anywhere behind your jaw you're not a 32.5" draw length.

I'm only saying this because shooting the proper draw length is the very first step in shooting accurately.  The poundage won't be a problem at all.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I am 6'4" and i have a 31 inch draw... I anchor my thumb nail in the corner of my mouth...

[funkster]

You can measure your own draw length at home! Make a fist,touch it to the wall and have a friend measure to the corner of your mouth. I'am 5'10" and my exact draw lenght is 29 3/4 but I feel more comfortable at 30" draw. If you have not already I would go have your bow checked for timing. I think your bow has a cam and a half and those do go out of time. I have had mine go out twice on me and the last time it was 2.5 turns out of time.

I know it is all personal choice and what you are comfortable with and is another touchy subject, but I feel to cut yourself at 40 yrds is cutting yourself alittle short. With the speed of today's bow and arrows shooting 300 plus fps, with the right set up such as carbon arrow with shorter vanes and a small diameter broadhead they get to 40 yards in a hurry very flat. With proper technique and alot of practice a experianced bow hunter can shoot out to 60 yards. I know about six archer's that shoot elk every year past 60 yards hitting them in the vitals. Un-ethical, I hear alot about those shots but have not really understood the term. A heart/lung shot at 5 yards or 75 yards is still a heart/lung shot. I'am not trying to get anyone to change there personal hunting ethics and I believe that a closer shot is always better 100%. But to say anything over 45 yards is un-ethical is alittle extreme IMPO.

[boneaddict]

No problem Funkster.  I just shot six arrows off of my front porch to my target that is 55 yards away, all in a tennis ball size group.  Its downhill, and I have never shot from there before.Actually I didn't range it until later.  I'm sure I can make the shot, just don't feel its necessary.  Just too many hthings that can go wrong.  Now when that 400 inch bull is 50 yards out and won't come any closer while I'm down in NM, lets see where my standards are at.   Honestly, even with my rifle, most shots are well under 50 yards.  On occasion I loft one, but the country I hunt is usually right in front of you or half a mile away.

[jackelope]

I'm 6'4" and my bow is maxed out at 30" draw and it puts the nock of the arrow right at the corner of my mouth. i think bill at nock point said the right draw length for me is about 30.5" and cut my arrows to 30 3/4" from the insert to the nock.

[funkster]

Yeah,thats is what I mean! I believe it is all about the situation and like you said if a 400 bull comes out at 55 yards and I can't get any closer, I want to be practiced up at that yardage and know I can shoot that far if I have to.


Here is a deer that I shot at 53 yards with my hoyt supertec.The deer only went 28 yards.

[Machias]

I guess I better stay away from this thread or I'll get myself banned.

[boneaddict]

Speak your mind, just keep it clean.

[jackelope]

this site is all about conversation....

[Machias]

"Speak your mind, just keep it clean."    I alway keep it clean.  This is a subject I am passionate about, and can get myself wound up pretty tight, which says alot cause I'm a very easy going guy about 98% of the time. 

All I'll say is when that 400 inch bull steps out THAT is the moment above all others you should use maximum constraint.  There is no doubt todays equipment can put the arrow EXACTLY where you are aiming.  But even at 300-320+ fps the time, in hunting conditions, is way to slow at those distances and way too many factors, out of your control, can effect the flight of that arrow.  At the exact momet you release, the elk's brain signals his legs to move so he can take a bite of grass 12 inches away, the wind picks up just a tad, and you have yourself a 400 inch bull with an arrow zipping through the EXACT spot you were aiming for, however the elk's stomach is now behind that spot.  You get to spend the rest of the season hating yourself because you know in your heart and mind that that animal, that magnificent 400 inch bull suffered, probably died, but even if he didn't he suffered none the less.  It's at that point, when the bull steps out you have to be able to get closer or be strong in your convictions that this is a close quarters sport and let the bull walk, to be hunted again another day.  Bowhunting is about getting close and I'm not trying to sound elitist, but it's about distance and angles and trying to take shots at relaxed, unaware game.  Even with todays bows zipping along at 300+ fps, whitetails can easily be missed at 20+ yards from dropping a full body length at the sound of the release.  Yes bows are faster, but they are not fast enough to elivaite those past problems of distance and time that archers have aways had to deal with.  Sure plenty of guys have made 40, 50, 60 +++ yard shots, doesn't mean they should.  Show me a guy who consistently takes shots over 40 and I will bet my paycheck he's wounded a bunch of animals or lost a bunch of arrows.  We have a pretty good 3D archery range here in Spokane, if someone could show me that they can consistently hit the 10 ring I'll be SHOCKED, and these targets don't move after you release the arrow, but they are in hunting type conditions.  I believe we owe it to the animals and the sport of bowhunting to close the distance.  There is already such a clamor against archery from non-archery hunters who say why do they need special seasons, heck they are shooting elk out at muzzleloader ranges.  Have you ever slightly pulled off a target as you were releasing?  Ever slightly brushed your shirt sleeve, bumped your hat, didn't see that little twig, lots of reasons to try and work in closer.  If the big boy walks out and you can't get any closer, guess what he's still out there waiting for you to come after him again. 

Honestly, I'd like to see guys who take 60+ yard shots be banned from bowhunting, but that's just me.

[jackelope]

well said...and i think that most of us on here would agree with you, including boneaddict.
i think his comment was a tongue-in-cheek kind of thing...kind of like joking, but i'll let him speak for himself...but that would definitely be the ultimate test of your hunting ethics/morals/restraint and i don't know how many people could/would not take that 50 yard shot.
i find it real fun to shoot targets at 50-60-70 yards in my little experience, but i don't think i'd ever have the confidence to shoot that far at an animal.

[WDFW-SUX]

I'll say this about the distance factor. In the last Ten years archery equipment has changed more than in the last 40 and there are a ton of guys I know who are more than capable of shooting the X at 60 yards all day long with field points.  With laser rangefinders and the new types of broad-heads that fly IDENTICAL to field points 50 yards is a very easy shot for someone who has taken the time to hone there skills. I recently shot a 3D at Kenmore and scored  a 10 or better on 37 targets out of the 45 targets. I had a kill shot on every single target some past 70 yards and I don't consider myself one of the better shooters out there.  Given proper angles and the mood the animals are in Id take a 50 yard shot and not even think twice about it. Every one is different but with the advances in technology  effective shooting distances have increased greatly with out a doubt.

[Ironhead]

I hear ya WDFW but, the one thing that hasn't changed in all those years is the fact that 1 step at 55 yards and you just gut shot an animal or hit shoulder bone, one big gust of wind and the same results. Technology has changed but mother nature hasn't.

[funkster]

Very good points have been made, atleast posters have good reason's behind there statements! This is a really good forum.By now on other sites I have lurked on people would be in all out keyboard war. It says alot for are state of Washington and it's hunter's.

I have a video about shot placement and it says that the lady with the most big game records shoots a bow at 52lbs, so yes, 60lbs with good shot placement will work! The point I was trying to make is if you don't get that perfect shot,the higher the poundage = more speed which =  more kinetic energy you will have. Thus = a shoulder bone won't stop the arrow.


Machias,I agree with most of what you said. I love getting close to big screaming bulls and I would love to take a elk at 20 yards and under and that is even what I'am hoping and planning for. I agree 100% that closer is better. Where I differ is to limit yourself to a yardage number such as 40 yards and to say anything over that is just un-ethical. It is all about situation and yes I have passed on elk before even at 20 yards for those reason's you said branches,uphills and downhills and that is why I haven't haverested an elk yet. I'am not out there just to get a animal. If the situation is not right I will and have passed up game. Until I feel 100% sure about the shot, I will not take it, I'am 100% for no animal suffering and I'am 100% about shot placement that is why I practice so much.


Jackelope,Bill is a great guy! My family has been going to his shop for 20 years. My dad took me there when I was 12, just this year I took my 10 year old son up to get his first "real" bow. Bill knows bows!

[Machias]

Archery only seasons are much longer in most states and even have more liberal harvest because the whole concept of bowhunting was the added difficulty of getting close enough and being able to draw without being detected.  Once we as a group start condoning shots out to 60 70 80 yards, becasue the equipment can do it, we as a sport are doomed.  I love compounds, been shooting them all my life, but if the trend goes to laser range finders, 90% letoff, etc etc and shots out to those ranges are consider acceptable then I will have to side with the traditionalist and go back to equipment restrictions which limit the effective ranges of the weapons.  The way it's heading I'd support bare stickbows in archery season and the rest can use their equipment in rifle season.  In the past 10 years, with last year being an exception, I have gotten a deer every year with a rifle, none have been over 75 yards, most have been rattled into less then 50.  I have always dismissed the guys talking about equipment restrictions as blowhard elitist, but honestly if the bowhunters in general move in that direction I'll have to be on the other side.  Bowhunting was never about hitting a ping pong ball at 80 yards, it was about the quest to become a better hunter then a rifle or muzzleloading hunter, pushing your hunting skills to the limit, not your shooting skills.  

Look you fellas that don't see anything wrong with long range shooting, I am NOT trying to demean you, I figure you probably didn't have a mentor that stressed those values, I'm trying to just get you to take a step back and think of bowhunting as a whole.  If you make that shot and something out of your control happens and you wound an animal, what impact will that have on the sport, what impact wil that have on your hunting soul?  Can you wound animals at close range?  Absolutely, but your odds increase dramaticlly as the range increases.

Sorry to have hijack the thread.

[Machias]

I understand funkster, if you live by that creed you'll do fine.  Sorry to be preaching to you guys.  I have been on a few hunting site that do not support bowhunting and the biggest complainant is wounded animals, even though I believe most rifle and muzzleloaders seriously exaggerate about ALL the animals they find laying around the woods with arrows sticking out of them....at least I hope so.

[pacyew]

I understand funkster, if you live by that creed you'll do fine.  Sorry to be preaching to you guys.  I have been on a few hunting site that do not support bowhunting and the biggest complainant is wounded animals, even though I believe most rifle and muzzleloaders seriously exaggerate about ALL the animals they find laying around the woods with arrows sticking out of them....at least I hope so.

Bowhunting's problem is that an arrow is kind of a visual thing. Its hard to see a bullet sticking out of an animal. And hunter's love to tell stories, and everyone has a better story than the last guy. Some guy hears a story about an animal found with an arrow in it. The next time it's told it was 4 or 5 arrows sticking out of it. It just doesn''t happen that way.

As to enough draw weight for elk, just get in real close and put the arrow in the right place.

[boneaddict]

Thanks for posting up Machias.  I agree with you %100. Like I said, even with most of my rifle shots, they are under 50 yards, and usually alot closer than that.  It doesn't mean I can't shoot further, I actually fancy myself as one hell of a shot, I just don't want to.  As you stated elequently and Miles stated its all about something else for me.  Thats why I hunted with my longbow during the general rifle season last year.  I'm a little sick of the technology out there these days, and very much for primitive only and modern seasons. ...but thats another thread.  Good opinions everyone.

[funkster]

I guess a good question to ask yourself is:  which would be more satisfying to you as an archer,  to lob an arrow out 80 yards and hope nothing goes wrong that is out of your control, OR  to be so close to the animal that you feel as if you could almost reach out and touch it right before you make that clean shot into the vitals

I want to be so close I can feel his breath when he answer's to my calling,that would be the most satisfying to me as a hunter!

[WDFW-SUX]

I don't see the advances in technology having any effect of the success rates of bow hunters because as time goes by the number of hunters is decreasing as well as the level of outdoor skill.  It will probably just stay the same IMHO. I have not seen many traditional archers that I would consider a threat to kill something out side of 15 yards excluding some of the FITA guys so I don't really care when or how long they hunt. I would like to see them use wooden arrows if they want a special season though.

[boneaddict]

I have not seen many traditional archers that I would consider a threat to kill something out side of 15 yards excluding some of the FITA guys so I don't really care when or how long they hunt. I would like to see them use wooden arrows if they want a special season though.

I'll take it!

[rewent12003]

i shoot a hoyt also, my draw is 65lbs my arrow speed is almost 300fps, i use carbon arrows with muzzy like three blade broad heads, at 60 yards im in the kill zone. i have a shakyness problem when at draw about the same as you i use a exercise band to strengthen my pull and shoulder strength it helped me out alot.

[tlbradford]

The only thing I want to add to this conversation is this:

RAZOR SHARP BLADES ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN KILLING AN ANIMAL WITH A BOW!!!

Animals are killed by the cutting action of the broadhead.  Not a transfer of any energy.  Faster bows help with shot placement because they shoot flatter, so you can miss your range estimate by a few yards either way.  Penetration is greater with a faster, heavier arrow which will create a larger wound channel, but only if the broadheads are sharp.  If the broadhead is not "cutting a path" for the arrow to pass through, than how fast it is going is insignificant.  If this wan't the case we would all hunt with field points.

[LongTatLaw]

I pull as much weight as I can and when I get a new bow Im gonna get something that lets me get 10 more pounds added.

With todays arrows (following WA state mins) 60 pounds is gonna give ya the KE ya want for elk and a well placed shot will blow right through.

I pull as much weight as possible (possible meaning accurately and comfortably) for 2 reasons.
   1. The more weight I pull the flatter my arrow flies which covers for range errors
   2. If that animal does move or shift and you get shoulder I want to be pushing as hard as possible.

I only hunt with virgin blades. That can get pricey if its been a good year but once a blade touches anything but quiver...its a practice broadhead with me!

As for distance. I feel very confident I can shoot paper plates at 60 yards all day and much better at 50 yards. If an elk was calm and stationary I might consider 50 yards but not one yard more... too much can happen.

I pull 78 pounds and I shot a large bodied elk from 1 yard (in a treestand) with a razor sharp broadhead expecting it to dig knock deep in the ground after exiting the elk. I hit bone somewhere and only got 1/2 shaft penetration...That ended in a very difficult tracking job and a crazy mess that we all want to avoid!

So, while 60 pounds is plenty for a perfect heart shot... elk bones are big, dense, and mean to arrows...!

I grew up on whitetails and they "jump string" 90% of the time. meaning even at 20 yards they can move over 12 inches before your arrow gets there and at 40 yards they can be in the next zip code...

So its stuck in my head that 30 yards is max for deer... bears and boars would be more likely to see a longer shot from me because they are slower to react IMO.

Any way,

You set up is good but as the shoulder feels better and time allows... push that weight on up there if you can get the accuracy to stay consistent!

Good luck and happy hunting!

Ill keep my eye out for the pics of your monster trophies! 

[boneaddict]

My bull shifted this fall, and I got into the shoulder blade.  I was extremely happy I was shooting 2 blade Magnus Stingers versus my compound with its 3 blade montecs.  I honestly don't think the montecs would have split that shoulder.  Obviously I DON"T KNOW. I'm just gald it worked out.  It also helps that I am shooting 80 pounds ...no let off so I think I get more penetration than I do with the 85 pounds with let off.  No labratory tests, but digging arrows out of stumps shows that.   

I agree with you on the virgin blades.  I bought a sharpener this year, but have yet to re-use a blade, and yah, it isn't cheap.

[bullelk1]

Machias is 100% correct.  The idea behind bowhunting is that it is a short range method that requires skill and the closer you get the more skillfull you are!  Now, if we could only get a lot of the bowhunting population to practice that!

[jae]

Machias is 100% correct.  The idea behind bowhunting is that it is a short range method that requires skill and the closer you get the more skillfull you are!  Now, if we could only get a lot of the bowhunting population to practice that!

I AGREE!

[wastickslinger]

I have killed a few around the 50 yard mark, 52 and 55. Both were dead in less than 100 yards in my sight. 50 to 55 is max for me. I was excited both times. But nothing has been more exciting than the one at 7 yards!! The thrill of being that close is why I bow hunt. That super loud wack and the assurance that he is a dead buck walking before you release at close range is what it is all about. Everyone has their range, as long as you are 100% sure you can make the shot, and make it count, then make it!!!

[Intruder]

I agree with Machias 100%. 

While I've just taking my first baby steps in regard to archery I have been very fortunate to have some expert tutaliage from 2 archers who've killed dozens of elk over the years.  They generally refuse to shoot even over 20 yards with 30 being their absolute limit. 

While I'm quite sure there are hundreds of guys out there on this forum (hell, I've even done it at the 3D course) who can hit a softball sized target at 50 yards that doesn't equate often enough to ethical and humane kills.  My guess is that every 5 yards past 25 yards there is an exponetial increase in wounded animals.     

[dbllunger]

I agree with some points and disagree with others.  Machias...I have been bow hunting for four years now, and have shot three book bucks at 60+yds, 50+yds, and 40+yds.  The first year I did not shoot at another book buck at 50 because my equipment was not up to the task.  I have never lost an arrow or wounded an animal, and just re-fletched the same arrow used to kill all three.  It simply comes down to the hunter, their equipment, skill level, and how the person uses those to kill an animal.  Range and equipment has nothing to do with how far.  It is the person  who makes it ethical or not.  I also agree the major majority should practice more and limit should shooting distance to less then they have.  That does not apply to everyone.   I think the principal should apply to all weapons.