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Author Topic: Harvest reports what's the point?  (Read 33255 times)

Offline colockumelk

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2011, 04:29:02 PM »
Well said cedar pants. And I wouldn't worry about the WDFW shutting down a GMU. The Yakima and Kittitas county deer herds have declined by over 50% since 2004 and we still have a general season. The Colockum elk here has lost 80% of its bulls in 10 years and there is still a general season. It seems that in order for an area to go permit only it has to be on the brink of extinction.
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Offline coachcw

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2011, 04:42:07 PM »
So lets say that every hunter reports in say unit 340 for example . my bet would be that the elk harvest by bow hunters and modern hunters is very low . IE some fair chase hunting hot dry or preasured animals . then dec rolls around and the animals are used to getting fead in certin areas and wintering in a area aswell as well as beingused to so much car/truck traffic. Then just when there settling down for the winter a large amount of road hunters in the cases i seen Indians drive in and harvest many many animals . How can this not be crittical information that the game deptarment dosn't need? I would think that the tribes would be more than willing to paticipate in reporting these kills to help manage the herd . If they don't then the image I get is a non contributing user group only taking what they so deserve . Maybe if we just leave the winter range open and let them kill off all the elk they would eventully stop hunting them ? ( kinda like the buffalo ). BTW I saw six gut piles on one road last weekend from this type of harvesting and only two of them didn't leave the hides . I guess since wallmart opened they not need the tans .

Offline Jack Diamond

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2011, 04:50:57 PM »
probably missed this somewhere, but it is a valid question in my mind, does the tribe have any knowledge of what their members are harvesting, and where? and the tribe refuses to give numbers?
or are the individual tribal members on there own, no tribal tags, no tribal oversight, nothing?
probably a repeat of what someone else has asked, but feel free to blast me for being too lazy to do a search!                                                                                                                           
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Offline colockumelk

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2011, 07:08:50 PM »
It depends on the tribe Jack. Many tribes set seasons, share harvest data, pay for research and are overall good stewards to wildlife and are a good partner in sharing resources.  The tribe we are talking about are the Yakamas. They not only do not collect harvest data but they refuse to do so. They also refuse to help out or cooperate with the WDFW in amy way in regards to big game.   Oh and they don't have limits on how many elk or deer they can harvest.

Coach I think we all know the reason why they won't do harvest reports. As has been told to me by members on hee, because then the WDFW and the world would know how big an impact they actually make. Right now tjey can claim ignorance and say their impact is minimal.  And no they have zero interest in proper management. This has been made quite clear over and over.

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Offline Jack Diamond

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2011, 07:56:29 PM »
Ok,I worked out of Toppenish for a few years,So I understand the yaks are the tribe in question. However Safari Club International has nothing but good to say about the Yaks,if I remember correctly the Yaks were Hero's among this forum for bringing the antelope to Washington,contrary to the WDFW bio's opinion. I can in some ways understand the ceded land argument of the Yak's,but I don't see the Muck's having a claim to the same land.       Also the bio's in charge of the Yak's big game program are Anglo,and have received accolade's for their bighorn sheep program,could be I'm mistaken but obviously every user group will not be happy.  The Yak's and their Anglo bio need to step up to the plate and work with WDFW ,or perhaps the SCI members should figure out which side of the rules they want to weigh in on,are Antelope a fair trade for elk and deer??
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Offline ICEMAN

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2011, 08:29:24 PM »
Bigtex, good point.

Here is the question though. Why fine or charge unreporting anyway? Do the numbers they glean from the reporting actually truly help the managers "manage" game populations? Are game numbers reported this fall really truly altering how they manage next years hunt?  I would have expected managers to have a bigger plan than this yearly reporting. They should be able to manage on a long range plan, and not be quick to fine somebody for that immediate answer they do not need.

Don't wildlife managers already estimate the number of game animals poached or killed by vehicles, or tribal take (reported and not...). 

Are we going to start citing drivers who do not report striking a deer with their car?

Wildlife managers are paid to do what? Wait for hunters to report what they "said happened", and then blindly manage game populations based upon these numbers? This is not what they studied for all those years in college. Let's throw away all our education and place all of our career decisions based upon what alot of pissed off hunters report....yeah! Yeah, this is how we will manage game populations!

I bet wildlife already has a "false reporting" average built into their number gathering. They already suspect that a whole lot of the reports are false, and therefore are pushing this mandatory reporting issue as revenue source plain and simple.

Yes, these are only my BS observations and assumptions. So be it, this is how I see it.





You fine people for not reporting so that hopefully they remember to report next time.  If most people actually gave two sheets about management and quit buying into all of the conspiracy theory BS then maybe there wouldn't have to be fines.  Yes the information truly helps managers.  Yes, managers can manage off this falls data.  It is called emergency closures if needed.  Managers do manage based off a big picture, but the big picture is painted from annual snapshots of data. 

People must have the perception that wildlife managers are rolling in money and that they only manage hunted species and that they get to choose where they focus their time.  There is not enough time or money in a year to survey every GMU annually. 

DOT keeps a database of road killed animals which are reported, discovered poached animals are reported and a large portion of tribal harvest is reported. 


Iceman, I will ignore your ignorance on what wildlife managers are paid to do and what they went to school for. You obviously have a small vision of what it takes to manage wildlife and what resources this state has to do it.  I can't fathom why it is so difficult to report your harvest.  If so called sportsmen who claim they care about the resource can't fill out a simple harvest report, then in my opinion you have no business hunting.  You obviously are someone who disregards rules and does not have the best intent for wildlife in general.

But thats my observation.  I probably have it all wrong.

Practical, since you know so much about what biologist are paid to do and what they schooled for, please explain to me what percentage of error you factor in to mandatory big game harvest report data.

I fill out the form each year. Missed it one year and got fined. I complained. No reason for the fine, I have a long history of reporting my harvest data, the record show this, yet I still get the fine. The fine is all about taking advantage of hunters, even those with a stellar reporting record. The fine is about revenue. 

How long have you been in this state? I have been here for 47 years and follow the rules. My job requires that I follow the rules, so blow it. I think I must have struck a nerve with you in particular.

I care a whole lot about wildlife, so much so that I question the departments ability to maintain a healthy game population. Did you happen to read in the thread where I felt that Doe and Cow tags should not be given out? I feel that game populations are way to small in many areas of the state, and I feel that the game department could care less, and are willing to sell out our resources to stuff the state coffers with our permit application fees. I am sure you will agrue that the beloved biologists know better with their edumakation and all. Others here have argued that  the Bios can make recommendations but they often fall on deaf ears. So what is the point of reporting to the bios?  Sounds like they should be solely in charge of season setting and harvest quotas? Would this fix the situation?

I do not know what the answer is. It seems that season setting and permit sales is so politicized that there is no possible way to salvage the game herds in the state. Add to the bias of the game commission, tribal harvest, continual illegal taking of wildlife...., we normal guys get a hunting season that is over in 9 or 10 days for mule deer, rediculous "true spike" regulations and a game regulation manual that is 118 pages long.

How much do you want to bet that some jackazz lowly state employee like myself, and about 5 good ol' boys could put together a better game management plan that actually preserves big game populations for generations to come, better than a truck load of educated biologists and game management professionals?
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Offline singleshot12

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2011, 08:56:28 PM »
:yeah: 

 
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Offline Coastal_native

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2011, 09:01:35 PM »
How much do you want to bet that some jackazz lowly state employee like myself, and about 5 good ol' boys could put together a better game management plan that actually preserves big game populations for generations to come, better than a truck load of educated biologists and game management professionals?

Uhhh...I'll take that bet.  Besides, coming up with the plan is 1% of the job.  Dealing with the political, economic, and social realities is the hard part.  All things considered, you probably have someone to thank for your opportunity to hunt for the last 47 years, especially considering some of the challenges this state has faced.  If it was WDFW's job to make YOU happy...well, I bet they would have their hands full. 

I can understand why PA seemed a little frustrated.  You definitely lost me on this thread. 
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Offline Arteman

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2011, 09:53:47 PM »
I use to think like some on here and not report when it wasnt mandatory or you didn't get fined, but the last couple years I reported correctly.  I do however think its bs you get fined if you don't, I just think you should get an incentive if you do, like a discount on your license next year, in a sence you kinda do with the way it is now, report now or pay ten dollars next year, it should be report now and save ten dollars next year, the way they go about it now puts you on the defensive, and has anybody ever known anybody to draw an incentive tag for reporting, they say they give them out if you do it in a timely matter?
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Online bobcat

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2011, 09:58:30 PM »
We've had a few members of this board who drew an incentive tag. Some of which I believe only joined when they drew the incentive tag. I know of one who is still here, but some of them made a few posts and we never heard from them again.

But yes, the incentive tags are real! Believe it or not.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:07:41 PM by bobcat »

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2011, 06:37:04 AM »
I use to think like some on here and not report when it wasnt mandatory or you didn't get fined, but the last couple years I reported correctly.  I do however think its bs you get fined if you don't, I just think you should get an incentive if you do, like a discount on your license next year, in a sence you kinda do with the way it is now, report now or pay ten dollars next year, it should be report now and save ten dollars next year, the way they go about it now puts you on the defensive, and has anybody ever known anybody to draw an incentive tag for reporting, they say they give them out if you do it in a timely matter?

Guys, it's like us doing reports of wolves we see. The WDFW needs our help to properly manage. It a responsibility we take on by accepting the privilege to hunt in WA. We're not talking about having to walk to Olympia in bare feet. It takes 5 minutes on your computer once a year. If that's too much to ask for better herd management (and some reporting is better than nonce), maybe your concern for the future of the sport isn't where it should be. In addition, with the changes that are occurring in this state regarding predators, it's going to be even more important to have as much data as possible.
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Offline coachcw

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2011, 06:43:02 AM »
the incentive tag is like throwing a sugar cube to a bear , just a lil treat . Give out one or two more raffle tags and make money off them so that they can install some more gates! Save the time and money spent on cloecting the data . I know the in a couple of days I can cover a unit or two and tell you from a sportsman standpoint whether or not the games dropped in a area, or how about ussing our master hunters to gather data it would be a good way to put in there time requirements ( just a thaught) I don't wanna bash Indians in gerneral because I know there are good sportsman and land stewarts amoungist the tribe and they belong to the sight aswell as there are non tribal poaching *censored*s aswell . But atleast we all know that poaching is illegal and if you get caught your delt with , some of the tribal harvest I've seen really looks simillar to poaching in the manner thegame is taken  :twocents: asfar as the yaks working on management what I hear and see is more about them getting 50% of the harvest vers doing whats right for the herd. I know that they got 10 teiton sheep tags and to me that seemed a bit much . one yak member on here drew one and worked very hard to fill his tag on a quality ram , that tells me that there's not to many in that herd 5-10 quality rams (maybe) . the mucks I saw that drew one of them clemans tag just drove up and saw a group of sheep and started to shot , they had no idea what a even decent ram was or just didn't care . that seem chitty to me since many members would love a tag yet never draw one in there life time . again thank you to all the tribal member that are trying to bridge the gap between us and work towards management , your not the one's i'm flustraited with .

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2011, 06:53:19 AM »
the incentive tag is like throwing a sugar cube to a bear , just a lil treat . Give out one or two more raffle tags and make money off them so that they can install some more gates! Save the time and money spent on cloecting the data . I know the in a couple of days I can cover a unit or two and tell you from a sportsman standpoint whether or not the games dropped in a area, or how about ussing our master hunters to gather data it would be a good way to put in there time requirements ( just a thaught) I don't wanna bash Indians in gerneral because I know there are good sportsman and land stewarts amoungist the tribe and they belong to the sight aswell as there are non tribal poaching *censored*s aswell . But atleast we all know that poaching is illegal and if you get caught your delt with , some of the tribal harvest I've seen really looks simillar to poaching in the manner thegame is taken  :twocents: asfar as the yaks working on management what I hear and see is more about them getting 50% of the harvest vers doing whats right for the herd. I know that they got 10 teiton sheep tags and to me that seemed a bit much . one yak member on here drew one and worked very hard to fill his tag on a quality ram , that tells me that there's not to many in that herd 5-10 quality rams (maybe) . the mucks I saw that drew one of them clemans tag just drove up and saw a group of sheep and started to shot , they had no idea what a even decent ram was or just didn't care . that seem chitty to me since many members would love a tag yet never draw one in there life time . again thank you to all the tribal member that are trying to bridge the gap between us and work towards management , your not the one's i'm flustraited with .

Sorry, but harvest reports are raw data of animals we know were harvested. You can't roam an area and expect to be able to accurately tell how many animals were harvested, whether you're a Master Hunter or know the area really well. Why is this so hard to do? Answer: It's not hard at all. Just fill out the reports.
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Offline coachcw

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2011, 07:03:28 AM »
piano thats not true , If you go into a area in the winter you can get a real good Idea of the level of game , true you wont know how far they traveled to get there but you get a good idea . if you and I fill out a report like we do , and say harvest 20 deer out of a unit , then tribal hunters show up in nov and december and shoot fiffty or more ( wich they do ) then how accurate is the tool ? all legall harvesting needs to be reported or you still have to go out and do the hard survival counts any way . that data they are gathering isn't woth a crap . the only reason that they arn't ussing the counts in my oppion is because when you know the servertity of the problem you have to do something . Now as it is all they can do is to take oppourtuntiy away from licenced sportsman thus cutting into there revenue base.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Harvest reports what's the point?
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2011, 07:06:43 AM »
piano thats not true , If you go into a area in the winter you can get a real good Idea of the level of game , true you wont know how far they traveled to get there but you get a good idea . if you and I fill out a report like we do , and say harvest 20 deer out of a unit , then tribal hunters show up in nov and december and shoot fiffty or more ( wich they do ) then how accurate is the tool ? all legall harvesting needs to be reported or you still have to go out and do the hard survival counts any way . that data they are gathering isn't woth a crap . the only reason that they arn't ussing the counts in my oppion is because when you know the servertity of the problem you have to do something . Now as it is all they can do is to take oppourtuntiy away from licenced sportsman thus cutting into there revenue base.

The data from harvest reports is valuable. It represents patterns in harvest that are calculable and show statistical trends. The are other tools available, yes. But to complain about having to do a 5 minute harvest report each year is ridiculous.
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