Deer and Elk Hunting in Idaho and Montana After Wolf Introduction

[KillBilly]

I have to say, for nearly a half century the lower 48 has done well without wolves, why are they needed, what good can come of their introduction into heavily human populated, modernized, and farmed lands, unless there is another agenda that isn't being stated.

Other than the fact that they are introducing themselves to our state, there is this thing called the Endangered Species Act that does not allow us to stop them.... We also have a large group that keeps introducing themselves from the South.... in my opinion they are both a plague on our landscape...hmmm maybe we should introduce them to each other.

   I should have clarified the government introduction in Idaho and YNP, which has now migrated to E WA.

I agree that they are migrating into WA, but I also know private individuals have released hybrids in GMU 121. Would not be surprised if the same hasn't occurred on the west side. 

And my post was meant in a humorous attitude, not in argument to Dales post.   Hmmm I hate to admit I may never make it in the comedy world..

[3nails]

Kim,

This is it.  The attachment shows all verified and report predator damage for the years 2006 and 2010.  I'm stunned at the increase in depredations from 2006 to 2010.  It's in black and white in our database.  Remember that this includes damage that was reported to us as well as damage we verified.  I'm guessing that one of the reasons other predator damage went up is because we were forced to spend more and more time trying to deal with the exploding wolf population and the damage wolves do.  Wolves have made it almost impossible to do much preventative work on coyotes, that is work to prevent livestock depredations before they occur.  We are just not able to get up on summer range ahead of the cattle and sheep anymore since we are so busy with wolf work.  During this same time period we did not get any additional money from the Federal government  or from the state (Fish, Wildlife and Parks).

We are losing the battle.  I am appalled that the number of livestock killed by predators has increased so dramatically.  Of course the wolves also affect this in another way in that we cannot use M-44's or neck snares in occupied wolf country and have to check our traps (all traps including coyote traps) daily.  That is as big of an affect as the actual wolf work.

[3nails]

            FY 2006         FY 2010
Coyotes         $174,492         $634,008
   Adult cattle      1 killed         4 killed
   Calves         111 killed, 2 injured      1,348 killed, 7 injured
   Adult sheep      135 killed, 7 injured      422 killed, 2 injured
   Lambs         698 killed, 14 injured      2,488 killed, 13 injured
   Adult goats      1 killed         9 killed
   Kid goats      31 killed         14 killed
   Chickens      19 killed         12 killed
   Geese         8 killed         2 killed
   Turkeys      5 killed         0

Wolves         $73,269         $512,981
   Adult cattle      17 killed, 2 injured      156 killed
   Calves         51 killed, 2 injured      454 killed
   Adult sheep      22 killed         728 killed
   Lambs         6 killed         48 killed
   Adult goats      0            2 killed
   Horses         6 injured         36 killed, 1 injured
   Llamas         4 killed, 1 injured      3 killed
   Guard dogs      0            3 killed, 2 injured
   Pet dogs      0            1 killed

Grizzly bears         $5,126            $21,481
   Adult cattle      1 killed         4 killed
   Calves         5 killed         32 killed
   Adult sheep      2 killed         29 killed
   Lambs         0            12 killed
   Adult goats      1 killed         4 killed
   Kid goats      0            3 killed

Black bears         $23,450         $75,785
   Adult cattle      2 killed, 1 injured      14 killed
   Calves         8 killed, 1 injured      32 killed
   Adult sheep      43 killed         106 killed, 2 injured
   Lambs         2 killed         13 killed
   Adult goats      4 killed         3 killed, 1 injured
   Pigs         10 killed         0
   Llamas         7 killed         0
   Chickens      0            15 killed
   Bee hives      17 destroyed         99 destroyed

[bearpaw]

Great posts 3nails, that really shows the impacts we have to look forward to here in Washington.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Sitka, i will just say that i believe you are wrong.  Granted you have the right to an opinion but your reasons for why you think the wolves should be brought back are just plain ignorant.  You know that they kill what they will see as food, no matter what it is.

There's a lot of taking things out of context here and that is an example. I never said one way or the other that I think wolves should be brought back.  I have just consistently said that things won't be as bad as most of the naysayers think they will and I've been pointing out the reasons I believe this. Will there be some individual cases where something unfortunate happens, say some farm animals or pets get killed? Yes.  Will there be cases where wolves slow the recovery of a localized herd or even cause it to dip? yes But overall, in the long run, they won't cause the destruction of our game herds. And they can do some good.

It's past time to worry about whether they should be brought back. They are back. Where our efforts need to go now is to management and mitigating the damage that they do cause on a case by case basis.

[bearpaw]

I guess if you don't live where you have to fear walking to your mailbox, if you aren't the rancher who loses a year's income to wolves, if you aren't the one who finds your dog's skeleton that's still warm, if you aren't one of the people in Idaho infected with E Granulosus (wolf worms), and if you aren't living where the wolves decimate the elk and other game, then I guess you are right, wolves don't have much of an impact do they.

No Thanks for your lack of compassion and consideration for those people and animals which are affected by the poor decisions of people who are out of touch with the realities and impacts of wolves. 

The one thing I will agree, wolves are here and someone in WDFW better get the lead out and hire some competent help to start confirming wolves. 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I guess if you don't live where you have to fear walking to your mailbox, if you aren't the rancher who loses a year's income to wolves, if you aren't the one who finds your dog's skeleton that's still warm

No Thanks for your lack of compassion and consideration for those people and animals

Ahhhh the dreaded mailbox stalking wolves.  I'd forgotten about those. I may have to reconsider my whole position.

While I'm doing that, I guess I'm going to have to find all the dog attack videos and info I can to compare with your wolf attack videos.  Ask a farmer to honestly tell you about the damage dogs do to his animals?  Not to mention dog attacks on humans.

I can tell you about a dog attack I saw the results of. Pulled up to a friend's house on Kodiak Island, out at Bells Flats. His neighbors were frantically trying to comfort their pet goat. Two large dogs had come onto their property and attacked the goat grabbing the fur by the neck, They had ripped the hide loose at the neck and litterally skinned the goat alive. It was standing there quivering with it's hide hanging from it's side. It's back was bare all the way back to it's hind end.

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Those dogs weren't protected or introduced by the Feds were they? What happened to them?

[JackOfAllTrades]

Domestic dogs do turn wild to survive. I don't think anyone will ever disagree with you on that. The problem with them is that they generaly do not fear man, and are not the skilled hunters that Wolves are.

-Steve

[Wenatcheejay]

I guess if you don't live where you have to fear walking to your mailbox, if you aren't the rancher who loses a year's income to wolves, if you aren't the one who finds your dog's skeleton that's still warm

No Thanks for your lack of compassion and consideration for those people and animals

Ahhhh the dreaded mailbox stalking wolves.  I'd forgotten about those. I may have to reconsider my whole position.

While I'm doing that, I guess I'm going to have to find all the dog attack videos and info I can to compare with your wolf attack videos.  Ask a farmer to honestly tell you about the damage dogs do to his animals?  Not to mention dog attacks on humans.

I can tell you about a dog attack I saw the results of. Pulled up to a friend's house on Kodiak Island, out at Bells Flats. His neighbors were frantically trying to comfort their pet goat. Two large dogs had come onto their property and attacked the goat grabbing the fur by the neck, They had ripped the hide loose at the neck and litterally skinned the goat alive. It was standing there quivering with it's hide hanging from it's side. It's back was bare all the way back to it's hind end.

A dog which does that needs to be put down. Thank you for the comparison to wolves that attack pets and livestock. I totally agree with you.

[furbearer365]

Sitka, how long will it take to for the wolves to have a positive impact.  You said they have lived with deer on Prince of Wales island for 2,000 years.  Well gues what, who has that kind of time to see the eco system come back around.  If wolves made there way here on there own then so be it.  We are talking about biologist REINTRODUCING them back.  Again, why should we want to have an animal placed here by biologist that will totally transform our game as we know it.  The only facts that surround this topic are that the wolves will kill without predjudice.  All of your arguement is speculation and comparing one environment to another.  Why do you not see it as a bad thing if a wolf, that our biologist put here, kills a ranchers herd off enough that it may put his family out of business.  Or attacts even one persons child.  Why would you ever act like it would be ok because it doesnt happen that much.  Are you that heartless that whatever doesnt effect you or your homelife then it out of sight out of mind.  THEY KILL AND DONT CARE WHAT IT IS.  They will impact all animals and push them to areas that may not sustain it.  You have said this all yourself and yet still argue that they are NOT AS BAD AS WE THINK. ?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

"415 elk between 2000-2004. "  That's about 80 per year.  That's the equivalent of what a handful of wolves will kill.

Bob, again, read the part where they said this is only a small portion of the actual UNKNOWN total.

If you go with the new york study where for every 1 deer killed that is reported, 5 others die, you come up with 6 times the reported amount. Now I doubt with elk it is that high for a couple reasons, the main one being that elk are so much larger, the accidents are generally more serious so are brought to the attention of the authorities. But with deer, that turns 3,000 reported dead deer per year into 18,000 dead deer per year. and again that is just on State and Federal highways.  The hunter take for 2009 and 2010 was right about 33,000.  My guess from what I see on this DOT report is that Washington probably has at least 20 to 30 thousand deer killed a year by vehicles. Pretty eye opening isn't it?

Add in the county and city roads. You might not think that city kill is that much, but I have personally seen two auto killed deer within a block of my house in the last 4 years. One was right across the street. A new phenomenon in recent years is deer populations exploding withing many city limits. Victoria BC is really up to their eyeballs in deer for example. ( http://www.rivermenrodandgunclub.com/3/post/2011/11/victoria-overrun-by-deer-as-some-locals-propose-cull.html)

 Then there are the PRIVATE roads which I would guess the vast majority are logging roads. I wonder how many deer or elk are taken out each year by log trucks and others on log roads. I have a good friend who drives a dump truck on a log road building and maintenance crew. He told me he's killed two this year, one a doe, and the other a nice fork horn a week before season started up the Wynooche. He's a hunter himself and it really pained him, but as he told me, on those tight roads, if it's the deer or me, it's gonna be the deer.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

A dog which does that needs to be put down. Thank you for the comparison to wolves that attack pets and livestock. I totally agree with you.

And Jay, I totally agree with you. I also agree that wolves that do the same need to be dealt with aggressively. Take out the ones that cause trouble before they cause more trouble or teach others to cause trouble.  That should be the rule for all animals and humans.

[Wenatcheejay]

This statistical theroy crap has gone way to far for way to long. We know what they do, we always have. WDFW knows as well, they just don't care. They want it.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Idaho-grizzly-killed-threatened/2011/08/26/id/408746

Remember that case. Enough, it has to change. If you follow other States this is very hostile, as it should be. Many here want to avoid that senerio but it is enveitable. ESA needs to be abolished. PERIOD

 

[furbearer365]

Sitka, yes there are many variables that lead to the deaths of our game such as car wrecks etc.  But why are you comparing a completely accidental wreck to our biologists deliberately planting wolves.  If our Fish and Game was planting cars in the wild that are chasing down deer and elk and runnning them over then use that as a comparison.  You really dont see a difference in the wolf reintroduction and accidental incidents with humans.