Endangered huh?

[GrainfedMuley]

"I do not find it any coincidence that wherever human numbers increase, big game herds suffer."

Beecaauusse.........................Us humans are not running around in packs killing big game for a couple of bites then moving on to the next kill. Big game can live with humans because they are not preasured 24/7, 365. Your comparison holds no warrant.  Even a Lion pack will clean the animal to the bone. Nothing left at all. Not wolves...........

[GrainfedMuley]

Remember this quote in the article about Alberta doing a wolf cull?

""Much of the habitat in question overlaps with the oilsands region -- although experts and the federal report alike don't hold the oilpatch solely responsible for the destruction of the caribou habitat. Rather, they say it's a culmination of decades, even centuries, of industrial development in the region that has upset the delicate balance caribou need to thrive.""

Well here's what's going on there in the tar sands region.

http://www.grist.org/oil/2011-12-28-satellite-photos-illustrate-dramatic-expansion-of-canadian-tar-s

and  http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/03/canadian-oil-sands/kunzig-text/1

This is the real reason the caribou in this region are becoming endangered, not wolves.

Another reason that THIS hunter is a tree hugging greenie.

You find a couple of articles about a specific region and that is the problem ALL accross North America?  Are you for real?

[GrainfedMuley]

Really Sitka,   Who are you working for? Somebody has to be giving you something to sign up on this forum just stir up chit. Only 98 post's. So you have not been here very long. If you believe all that you believe than go to some other tree huggin site where you will not cause any arguments. Cats do not hang out with dogs? Maybe go to a site where you will feel accepted and leave us alone. You are talking to people here that have many generations of heritage for OUR way of life. You are not going to change ANY of our minds or our way of life. So maybe take your views where somebody MIGHT aggree with you. Stop trying to convince us something that we don't believe.

[littlemac]

You guys mentioned Yellowstone as an example....

I think most of our wildernesses that wolves have moved into are great examples of what happens with wolves too. There's no logging or snowmobiling in any wilderness and elk used to thrive. All the feed is still there but now the wolves are there and elk have simply dissapeared by the thousands.

My guide in Montana this year is part of a 40 year old family outfitter business that hunts the Bob Marshall Wilderness. 

His comment to me was that they normally take 30 hunters a year into the Bob with over 50 % success.  This year they took the 30 hunters and brought out 2 elk.

He said that in addition to not seeing the elk they normally do, that the elk have taken to not talking to ech other anymore as a defense to the resident wolf pack.

One year doesn't make a study but the results of this years hunt seems to parallel results found in areas where wolves have been introduced.

Time will tell.  Hopefully it won't be to late when we find out with certainty for everyone that our years of game preservation efforts have been lost in only a handful of years.

[furbearer365]

Sitka, why am i rude?  You are on hunting forum agruing (badly) for the rights of an animal that could diminish great hunting as we know it.  You are arguing using much speculation and throwing out what you call facts, trying to open the eyes of people to your nonsense.  Your fact are useless cause you continue to compare our local areas to areas that have lived with wolves for thousands of years.  In these areas you talk about, do they have the mule deer numbers that montana has, do they have the whitetail numbers that idaho has, do they have the mountain lions, bears, coyotets, foxes, moose, sheep, goats, bobcats, elk, and livestock that all our western states have.  WE DONT NEED THEM FOR ANYTHING, SO WHY HAVE THEM?

[bearpaw]

"I do not find it any coincidence that wherever human numbers increase, big game herds suffer."

Beecaauusse.........................Us humans are not running around in packs killing big game for a couple of bites then moving on to the next kill. Big game can live with humans because they are not preasured 24/7, 365. Your comparison holds no warrant.  Even a Lion pack will clean the animal to the bone. Nothing left at all. Not wolves...........

First everyone knows that many big game herds flourish on human ranches and near human activity. I have pointed out in previous discussions on this forum that some of the best elk, deer, cougar, rabbit, coyote, and bobcat hunting in the state of Utah is in the Book Cliffs of Utah. That is also the area of some of the heaviest oil and gas activity in the entire west. The managing agencies have managed wildlife in the area very well in the midst of heavy human activities. I know this is fact as I have outfitted this area since the 90's. The hunting is actually better than it was 20 years ago.

Sitka, your comment is absurd.

This quote from Sitka tells me a lot about his/her inner thoughts. I've seen these types of comments from others who are opposed to pratically everything that has made this great country. I call it anti-everything, call it what you want, but this type of thinking is what is changing this country. People like this want to stop any human progress and do not want this country to remain strong and prosperous. This person does not want the canadians to prove they can manage caribou and oil at the same time.

I presented the study data showing the canadians have identified why wolves have over-populated due to a growth in other big game herds as a result of human activity and the canadians know they need to reduce the wolf numbers for the sake of the caribou. Wolf numbers are on the increase worldwide, these caribou herds are in danger of extinction. It's utter ignorance to try and prevent some of these wolves from being killed to protect the endangered caribou.

You can thank people with this frame of mind for the mismanagement of wildlife, our dependence on foreign oil, and in large part for the extreme environmental policy that's forcing companies to move operations and jobs to other countries. The canadians have found oil and are trying to extract it responsibly while watching over their wildlife and environment, I strongly suggest we support their efforts to kill off the wolves that are depleting the caribou herds.

[bearpaw]

The story at this link provides some good insight into wolf management and ecosystem management:

LOBO WATCH: Wolves - Shoot On Sight 365-Days A Year!
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,90265.msg1146012/topicseen.html#new

[Wenatcheejay]

 You have been polite and I am not namecalling here. But you said that humans only hunt horns, trophies. That is a lie. It is not true, not of a sportsman. Not of the model I speak of. It simply is not what is. 

I'm pretty sure I said many humans hunt for trophies. Not all humans. But most of us including me (most of the time) will pick a big one over a small one if they are side by side.  The point is, human hunters put different pressures on the prey animals than wolves do. And cervids and wolves have a symbiotic relationship, meaning it is beneficial to both species.  it's built into their biology.

"Many trophy hunters.?." is countered with the countless pictures of Royal Bulls being taken down by wolves. There is little doubt that it happens accept for somehow when discussing it with people like you Sitka. And if all the Royal elk are left because wolves pass on them? Where are they??? Blinders! (It is like holocaust deniers.)

And if you want to only hunt 6 point or better bull elk you should have that right so long as it is in a Management unit that can support it. Some people like me are more concerned with filling their freezer than a rack so I don't mind harvesting a cow. (Where it is supported through management.) That is a balance. But anti-hunting groups deny that any hunter like me exists. We are knuckle dragging criminals run down elk in their 4x4 who's only reason to enter the woods is to kill, kill, kill. (Which discribes wolves pretty darn well.)

Have I taken 5 point Mule deer and branched antler bulls? Yep. Big bears? Yep But I have also taken does in my time. The last few years I wanted a cow and even let a 6 point elk walk because of the distance. I let several cows walk because of the heat last season. I actually think I am more of the norm than not. You can describe yourself as one who would only harvest the trophies, (you imply anywhere?) but you do not speak for me. You do not speak for how I was raised. You do not speak for the people I hunt with, and that is dozens & dozens of people from many States. You are a bigot when it comes to hunters. That, I can't help you with. I can only show you that your ideals do not prove to be true in the face of reality. Yes, you and your ilk may prevail in preventing any sensible management that can support the "North American Model." But, that does not make you right. Everywhere that your plan is in action a wasteland of Big Game we support is the outcome. Not void of life, true. Nobody claims that.

I think it is time to take the masks off. We know the outcome. So do you. This is simply a matter of if we are going to use a more European Model for hunting where 5K or more is spent to High Fence Hunt. Or, will the North American Model will survive this assult and provide Wildland for future generations to experience the style of hunting freedom that American management has to offer the way it has traditionally for 80 years. Our system works, yours will distroy it. Your side wants that. That is what you are not honest about. You want trees and songbirds, beavers and flowers. And of course the tax from Daddy's guns and bullets to pay for it.

Hey Guys! Ever feel like this wolf thing is a sihitty divorce settlement and we keep paying for things we no longer want to F with? That's kinda like Idaho for me.

[jackmaster]

sitka, do us all a favor and point us in the direction of these other forums that you are also on that are pro wolf, i would like to go on there and see what your posts are, or if your just blown smoke on this site, cause i honestly believe your a pro wolfer on a huntn friendly sight trying to do god knows what, one way to show us you are who you say you are is to let us see for ourselves, i can tell you who i am, i love huntn and fishn and i am only for what is right for are game, fish and habitat. i am a serious wolf hater, i do not think they belong in the lower 48, i believe we were shown in the past why they dont belong, and sorry but if it aint broke dont fix it.... so leave wolves out of the lower 48, eradicate them all.....

[GrainfedMuley]

  so leave wolves out of the lower 48, eradicate them all.....

 

[bearpaw]

"I do not find it any coincidence that wherever human numbers increase, big game herds suffer."

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/01/08/1944777/wolf-arrival-sparks-debate-in.html#storylink=cpy

RMEF: David Allen comments about wolves.....

"More wolves will simply mean a need for more management", said David Allen, president and CEO of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, a nationwide group with 185,000 members. "To keep wolf populations controlled", he said, "states will have to hold hunts, shoot wolves from the air and gas their dens. Ambitions of a natural balance are based on a land devoid of humans", Allen said," but because there are millions of people here it is up to them to manage animals like wolves."

"Natural balance is a Walt Disney movie," he said. "It isn't real."

[seth30]

 You have been polite and I am not namecalling here. But you said that humans only hunt horns, trophies. That is a lie. It is not true, not of a sportsman. Not of the model I speak of. It simply is not what is. 

I'm pretty sure I said many humans hunt for trophies. Not all humans. But most of us including me (most of the time) will pick a big one over a small one if they are side by side.  The point is, human hunters put different pressures on the prey animals than wolves do. And cervids and wolves have a symbiotic relationship, meaning it is beneficial to both species.  it's built into their biology.

[Gringo31]

Why does Sitka always ignore any comments in regard to Yellowstone? 

[bearpaw]

More scientific proof that killing wolves is needed to protect endangered caribou numbers:

http://alcesjournal.org/alces/article/viewFile/32/31

ABSTRACT: Mountain caribou (Rangifer tarandus caribou) populations in south-eastern British Columbia are declining over most of their range and are listed as Threatened. Predation has been documented as the major cause of declining caribou numbers. Excessive predation by wolves (Canis lupus) has been related to increased moose (Alces alces) numbers. The increase in moose appears to be the result of a natural colonization process that has been enhanced by human-caused habitat change. Options to reduce the rate of predation include reducing wolves, reducing moose, and reducing the amount of early seral habitat that supports moose. Current management includes population control of moose and wolves. Monitoring and assessment of these approaches will guide the future management strategy used to maintain mountain caribou in south-eastern British Columbia.