Show Me Your Papers Please

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Eliminate the "clam' offense and insert any  natural resource infraction you can think of and then answer.....

  I provide my license and articulate may name and address for the officer.  Then I am requested to provide reasonable identification.  There are lots of reasons I may not have ID (I kayaked to the beach).    I have, by the letter of the (proposed) law complied, I have identified myself yet I cannot provide any ID besides my license.   

1. What constitutes “reasonable identification”?
2. Can I also be charged with misdemeanor because I cannot provide “reasonable identification”?

[Knocker of rocks]

Can I also be charged with misdemeanor because I cannot provide reasonable identification?

In one of his earlier posts, BigTex clarified that also.  The individual may be held until his identity is reasonably confirmed.

Not having ID is not a crime with exceptions, prime among these is procession of any sort of operators license

[Knocker of rocks]

   X's 2  If you're not breaking any laws or a Law Abiding Citizen then what do you have to worry about or hide?

Thomas Jefferson thought we should worry

[bigtex]

1. What constitutes “reasonable identification”?
2. Can I also be charged with misdemeanor because I cannot provide “reasonable identification”?

1- Here is the exact language of the proposal: "A person who is to receive a notice of infraction is required to identify himself or herself to the peace officer by giving the person's name, address, and date of birth. Upon request, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard." The term "reasonable identification" appears to be either a DL or ID.

2- Pretty simple answer- "Any person who fails to comply with the requirement to identify himself or herself and give the person's current address is guilty of a misdemeanor." Now most officers would know a difference between a refusal to comply with providing an ID, and simply not having their ID on them (back at truck, etc).


ONCE AGAIN this law is already on the books for non-natural resource infractions (most of your everyday traffic violations fall under this) and has been for 25 years. All this does is make this law apply to natural resource infractions. I don't know about you, but if this law has been on the books for 25 years and hundreds of infractions are written everyday where the officer is requesting ID, I am pretty sure some constitutional law lawyer would have been all over this if it was not constitutional.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

So do I read it right that if you only have say a hunting license, and give an accurate current address=no misdemeanor?

Well first off you need to have committed a violation that is categorized as a civil infraction. Then you must provide an accurate name, DOB, and address. If the officer asks then you must provide an ID. If an officer doesn't request an ID then no crime. If they ask and you refuse then you committed a misdeameanor. Or if you fail to provide your name, DOB, and address you committed a misd.

But remember a violation must have occured in order for this to start going. If you are just out hunting and haven't committed a violation then this doesn't apply.

Just for the sake of argument, not taking one side or the other.................

What if no infraction or violation really occurred?  What if the LEO just wanted to screw with you? Say he makes something up and charges you.  Or what if he makes an honest mistake, and misinterprets the law or the circumstances and charges you? In either of those cases, you'd be forced to show your ID and if you didn't you'd be guilty of a misdemeanor, correct? Even if you were innocent in the first case.

[bigtex]

So do I read it right that if you only have say a hunting license, and give an accurate current address=no misdemeanor?

Well first off you need to have committed a violation that is categorized as a civil infraction. Then you must provide an accurate name, DOB, and address. If the officer asks then you must provide an ID. If an officer doesn't request an ID then no crime. If they ask and you refuse then you committed a misdeameanor. Or if you fail to provide your name, DOB, and address you committed a misd.

But remember a violation must have occured in order for this to start going. If you are just out hunting and haven't committed a violation then this doesn't apply.

What if no infraction or violation really occurred?  What if the LEO just wanted to screw with you? Say he makes something up and charges you.  Or what if he makes an honest mistake, and misinterprets the law or the circumstances and charges you? In either of those cases, you'd be forced to show your ID and if you didn't you'd be guilty of a misdemeanor, correct? Even if you were innocent in the first case.

Once again if no violation occured then this law wouldnt apply. An officer cannot make up a law and charge you with it.

Infractions are the pettiest offenses in WA. If an officer misinterprets an infraction then something is wrong. Examples of natural resource infractions: barbed hooks, failure to record catch, lifejackets, dog off leash. These aren't complex violations.

[Special T]

Oh, babed hooks are a good example... The officer may say "it isn't crimped  or filed enough."
I don't think this new law changes anything. I still have the concern that Whitey has... I have been asked for Id as a passenger in a vehicle, and the implication was that if i didn't comply the the "Burn't tail light" might become an issue for the driver... Leos have a hard job, and utilize as many tools as possilbe to catch bad guys.... The real problem is that they don't really do anything with bad guys anymore. Hell the govenor is talking about releasing lots of said bad guys early to save $$$.... So the new law might be just a paperwork clarification, but the underlying problem is still there... 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

It is not that hard. When was the last time you bought a hunting license? You had to show your ID when you bought it, now you even have a WILD ID.  If I am in the field and my license is checked what reason is there to provide further ID? (other than to harass or provoke)

~Whitney

I can think of a couple reasons Whitney. First, to make sure that you are really the person who's hunting license you show them. Picture ID will confirm that. Maybe you are from out of State and "borrowed" somebody's license to hunt or fish.  They want to be sure they charge the right person and that you'll show up to take care of the charges.

Or maybe you "stole" someone else's ID.  A case was just prosecuted in Oregon where a poaching ring was broken up because somebody used a girlfriend's ID to purchase a license.

http://special.registerguard.com/web/updates/26542236-55/deer-hunting-donoho-season-donohos.html.csp

"The Donohos got caught, Hall said, when an associate in the poaching ring, Miguel Kennedy, helped them “bring the scheme to a new level by stealing his ex-girlfriend’s identity in order to create a completely fake hunter profile.” Kennedy was sentenced June 13 to eight months in prison after pleading guilty to identity theft, forgery and illegally transferring hunting tags in the case.

The ex-girlfriend “really blew this whole thing out of the water,” the prosecutor said, when she went into an Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife office, puzzled by a “tooth envelope” she had received in the mail. The wildlife department sends such envelopes to hunters, asking them to mail back a tooth from the deer they reportedly killed, for analysis by researchers monitoring deer populations."

So you can see why they want to be sure you are who you say you are or your non pictured hunting license says you are.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Leos have a hard job, and utilize as many tools as possilbe to catch bad guys.... The real problem is that they don't really do anything with bad guys anymore. Hell the govenor is talking about releasing lots of said bad guys early to save $$$.... So the new law might be just a paperwork clarification, but the underlying problem is still there... 

Funny you should mention that. In the poaching ring article above, it looked like the father in son were going to have to spend some time in the pokey during hunting seasons besides losing their hunting privileges for life. But then I found this article.

http://special.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/26975711-41/jail-county-donoho-lane-poaching.html.csp

[Special T]

Well my comment wasn't just about hunting laws... I try and be a stand up guy and not mess up too much. That said i', tired of all the little laws that are used as "Law enforcemnt tools" but not actually enforced. Example... I'm driving my PU that screams REDNECK in the evening. I'm pulled over and asked for my drivers lic and registration. After they run my Lic i usually ask what the reason for pulling me over was... There are several canned answers but here are just a couple..
1 The trailer ball on your bumper obscured your LP
2 The LP lite is out on you bumper
3 the mud flaps on your truck arn't quite low enough
4 your tires stick out too far from the fender

You starting to get the drift?  I KNOW these are tools because i have had conversations with LEO's that i know about this stuff... How many of these "infractions" are written up? Not many.. Mostly just an informative warning is sufficeint, unless of course they need probable cause to make a "contact" with some one that looks like a DB... When i'm driving my hunting truck i fit that bill i guess... 

Laws are full of these small devices that are not enforced to polite citizens that do as thier told.  Well I resent even these small invasions of my space and rights BECAUSE the STATE screws up so much of everything else they touch.

Leo's enforce pooorly written laws that they rarely have input on, and then one inforced have little real recourse on! 

I know a LEO that had is patrol car hit by some non english speaking person with no ID... This POS was let go like a catcha and release stealhead while I have to get pestered by this crap?  The system is broken, my faith is gone, and can only PRAY the people i come in contact are as hard working and HONEST as I try to be. 

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Great post "T" I totally agree and have not brought up the state constitution yet.  Which I believe all LEO are sworn to protect. Am I wrong?

[whitney]

I suppose if I looked at this from the perspective of a scofflaw rather than a good steward and law abiding citizen I could see how ID would be useful to a LEO.  I really want to understand this but feel like it is the proverbial bill we must pass to see what is in it. 

I appreciate and respect all opinions presented here regardless of weather or not I agree.  This is what makes our country so unique.  I will resolve to wait this one out and see what happens.

Thanks for your take on this.

~Whitney

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Don't get me wrong Special T. I believe too many of the "infractions" are used for fishing expeditions and harassment. They are made to give LEOs a way around Constitutional protections.  Just like Sheriff Joe Arpaio having people stopped and checked out because they look Hispanic.

I'm all for following the law, but that includes LEOs too.

[Knocker of rocks]

Just like Sheriff Joe Arpaio having people stopped and checked out because they look Hispanic.

Kind of like those old fossils at the Augusta Golf Club, when Dr. J was arriving for a celebrity tournament, and the guard asked him if he was a caddy.

The good Dr. answered "the only caddy here is the one I'm driving".

[Special T]

Sitka, I like Joe... But your example of him is spot on as to the REAL problem.... The problems is what we do with bad guys/aliens, not how to catch them. They don't call Jail the revolving door for nothing... most cops focus on the "Apprehension" side of the problem, because that is how they can affect change.  I have talked to LEO's that said "Ya well i caught him and let him go, but WHEN I catch him a couple of more times he'll actually see some jail time!"  WTF

Now to be fair, cops don't place the sentences on bad guys. It shows just how absurd needing new "Tools" for apprehension are.  The problem is what we do with these jack wagons once they are caught!