arrow/broadhead choice

[RadSav]

As soon as I hit "Post" I knew I was going to be in trouble .  Guess all my experience in the pro-shop and workshops make me forget this internet thing is a little bigger.  Still waiting for Newred to respond, but I'll do the workup for you as well JLS.  I'll be shutting the machines down tonight around midnight and then I'll get started on those.

One thing to note about arrow speed.  If you shoot a sight and use a rangefinder what does it really matter?  The difference between a 100 grain point and a 125 grain point on a 70# bow at absolute legal minimum (420 grains) is less than 6% of your total arrow weight.  If that directly correlated with speed in a 300 fps bow that would be a difference of less than 18 fps.  My experience is that it is never that much. 

For arguments sake lets say 20 fps.  You use your range finder and determine the range is 60 yards and you have a 60 yard pin.  While you are getting ready for the shot the animal begins to feed closer or further than when you ranged it.  With the two different arrow set ups your ability to miss the kill zone varies about 6" on the far side and 9" on the near side.  Meaning your margin of error in distance between you and the animal is only 15 inches with the two arrows at a speed differential of only 20 fps.  That's less than 1/2 a yard.

If it is raining with a little bit of wind the gap between the two arrows would be completely erased if your 100 grain broadhead does not provide an adequate FOC to stabilize the arrow when the increase of environmental forces start hitting the planing surfaces of the head.

So while speed is a nice thing to have and strokes the male ego well.  It is always better to kill an animal at 195fps than to miss one at 400.

[Johnb317]

      
 First Elk I got was with my brothers 'old' Parker magnum at 35 yards...   Now I have a fast bow... so I shot the Elk that much faster (5 yard shot)  both were full pass through..
btw - goofed on my earlier post.... shooting 340's   I like the Slick Tricks because they fly like field points, and make a heck of a hole.  Oh.... and I shoot 4 blazers... Bill at the nockpoint suggests it, don't know how much it slows things down, but as long as it stabilizes the broadhead I don't care.

[RadSav]

Okay, I'll bite

Goldtip 7595 cut to 29"
Would like wraps
Trying to choose between 4" vanes and Blazers (3 fletch) with lots of offset and helical jig
D loop is about 1/2"
125 grain head

Two questions, am I on the right track or go stiffer spine?
Blazers or 4" vanes (Slick Trick heads)?

Ooops, Mathews Q2 @ 64 lbs 29" draw.

Well, you didn't tell me what model Goldtip arrow you were shooting so I'll run these numbers as if you were shooting the popular Pro Hunter all black.

If you shoot Bohning Blazers with a 4" wrap you should be good in regards to broadhead weight regardless as to whether you went 100 or 125 as both will take you over the 10% FOC.  I personally would go the with a 125 as it takes you to that magical 12% FOC.  That is always my targeted FOC when building my own hunting arrows.  I even go as far as having special brass inserts made for some of the arrows I shoot just so I can hit that 12% right on the nose with a specific broadhead.

Here is how it breaks down:

Goldtip Pro Hunter with original 14.8 grain insert (New 2012 model is only 11.4 grains)   Fletching with 3 fletched Blazer vanes and Blazer Carbon wraps.  Nock is standard issue GT .246".

125 grain point = 12.4% FOC  (10% with 2012 insert)
At 64# the dynamic spine is a little stiff.  Optimum performance would be achieved with the Mathews Q2 29" draw set at 68.5#

100 grain point = 10% FOC  (8% with 2012 insert)
At 64# the dynamic spine is too stiff but better than a 5565 spine would be.  Optimum peformance would be achieved with the Mathews Q2 29" draw set at 69#

If you were to choose a 4" vane like my favorite 3.88" AAE Plasti-Fletch with a matching 7" wrap you would only want to use the 125 grain point.  And even that would be too light if you were using the new 2012 insert.  FOC would be 11% and optimum performance would be reached at 68#.  The 100 grain point would drop you down to an 8% FOC which is much too light for reliable hunting performance.  Loose the wrap and you'd be adequate with the 100 grainer and perfect with the 125 grainer.

To answer your two questions:

am I on the right track or go stiffer spine?  You are already too stiff for the the older soft cam you are shooting.  But, you would have to go to a much inferior shaft to find a perfect match for your 64# bow.  So keep the arrow stiff as it is or bump up the poundage a little.  Better for you to shoot your arrows a little too stiff than to shoot more poundage than you are comfortable with.

Blazers or 4" vanes (Slick Trick heads)?  With the small broadhead and light 8.9 grain per inch arrow I would go Blazers for sure.  29" arrows can some times be a little long to get good broadhead stability from short vanes.  But the fact that the ProHunter holds so much of it's mass a good distance from the axis of the shaft, it is relatively light in weight, AND the Slick Trick holds so much of it's mass so close to the axis are all positive things for stable flight.  Blazers should be a perfect match for this setup.

[bullfisher]

Ah Yes. FOC, my favorite subject! or should I say EFOC. I have done extensive testing the past few years on EFOC (extreme front of center). And as mentioned above it is very over looked. Thats why i suggested the 300 velocity (8.5 gpi) with at least a 125. at your draw length. People say some bows like a weaker spine but its really just a way for some more give in your form. That being said my arrows are on the weak side, but im shooting 20% foc and almost 200grns upfront with a total arrow weight of 450. I will add that EFOC is NOT for the beginner and experimentation can be dangerous. This is a thread I started a while back, hope you have a beer cause its a long read, but good info.    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1097703&highlight=EFOC

[JLS]

RadSav,

Wow, that was some in depth analysis and very much appreciated!  The GoldTips are the XT Hunter, black, so no difference from what you ran with.

[Special T]

WOW that is some indepth tuning of the arrow to the bow!... I'm guessing that is what you do/used to?

[RadSav]

Anyone can get reasonably close to that kind of workup with one of the fine programs like Archers-Advantage.  They are very reasonable in price and usually a one time fee.  A-Advantage gives regular updates free of charge to stay current with new bows and arrows.  I use it a lot for my base calculations and to verify some theories.   

The biggest advantage is the ability to print out sight tapes.  I print a generic tape (similar to bore sighting a rifle) then get a perfect 20 and a perfect 100 yard verification.  Simply enter in the new figures for those two distances and that's it.  All yardage marks should be perfect from there on out.  Including your cut charts for shooting uphill and down hill.

There is a great danger when using these type of programs.  Just as with a chronograph it is easy to start getting disappointed with a perfectly good setup just because the speed number isn't cool enough.  Try your best to ignore the posted speed.  It's only benefit is to encourage new bow sales and steal more money from your pocket on bows that usually are no better than what you have.

[newred]

Sorry I didn't see this earlier Radsav.
Bow 2010 quest primal set at 29.5 inch draw with 70lb pull.
I think I am switching to magnus stinger 4 blade at 125 but not sure.
Again I am still torn between a few different arrows. But more than likely it will end up beman ics hunter .300. also looking at FMJ's at .300 and Victory vforce at .300. Arrow also 29.5 inch.
I have only shot blazer vanes in the past so I imagine I will continue.
Never used wraps before. I feel like I am giving you too many variables.
I guess this brings up questions like. Should I be shooting something other than blazers? should I use arrow wraps? are my arrows to long. Is the stiffer arrow heavier head a good option for my set up. I also shot shuttle T's last year but after shooting stingers and looking at both wound channels first hand am more than likely switching to stingers this year. Thank you for your time and help in advance...

[RadSav]

Newred,

Any time someone says they are shooting more than a 29" draw length I have to ask the question - How tall are you?

I have spent the past 25 years fighting target panic.  It all started by my need for speed in the early eighties.  It is the single most distructive thing I've ever done to my shooting.  I've spent thousands of dollars flying around the country working with some of the top coaches in the world (including Al Henderson while he was alive).  And still today it is a constant struggle.

Just want to make sure you are not over bowed and long drawn before I get carried away with a full work up on arrows to fit your bow.  Especially when correction with todays bows is so darn easy.

If you are under 6'2" we need to do a wingspan measurement.  Let me know your height and we'll go from there.

[newred]

Radsav,
I am 6'2. When I first got the bow I was shooting it at 29" then changed my release and it didn't feel quite right so ended up going to a different release and it still didn't feel right. So I ended up changing to 29.5" and it feels really good. Have done a lot of looking at my form and I am happy at 29.5. My elbow is nicely lined up with the arrow, my hips are in line with my shoulders, and it feels good. wing span from middle finger to middle finger is 74". Thanks again.

[RadSav]

Perfect!  I'll get that arrow workup done later this evening once all the machines are shut down.  But, I can tell you right now that the 300 spine/125 grain is going to be the right choice for you.  If anything the 300 spine is going to be a little on the light side for the Primal.  Because of that the Beman is probably going to look a bit better than the FMJ at 70#.  I expect around 1:AM I'll have those numbers for you.

[newred]

So is this the sort of thing you do for a living. I hope your not spending too much time for this thank you for answering the questions the guys at the pro shop wouldn't.

[bullfisher]

Sorry I didn't see this earlier Radsav.
Bow 2010 quest primal set at 29.5 inch draw with 70lb pull.
I think I am switching to magnus stinger 4 blade at 125 but not sure.
Again I am still torn between a few different arrows. But more than likely it will end up beman ics hunter .300. also looking at FMJ's at .300 and Victory vforce at .300. Arrow also 29.5 inch.
I have only shot blazer vanes in the past so I imagine I will continue.
Never used wraps before. I feel like I am giving you too many variables.
I guess this brings up questions like. Should I be shooting something other than blazers? should I use arrow wraps? are my arrows to long. Is the stiffer arrow heavier head a good option for my set up. I also shot shuttle T's last year but after shooting stingers and looking at both wound channels first hand am more than likely switching to stingers this year. Thank you for your time and help in advance...

Just my 2cents here but FMJ's are too heavy. Unless your looking for an arrow over 500grns. Victory makes a nice arrow and with good gpi but unless your local shop has them you'll probably be stuck ordering them, maybe not something you wanna do if you find yourself needing more arrows. Bemans are everywhere the hunter is still a little heavy for my blood but they make a speed arrow i think at 8.7 gpi. Goldtip still holds the crown for me though. Blazers still have the highest profile of any vane i think making them great broadhead vanes, though i've switched to ryzr feathers, if i went back to vanes it would be blazers. I'm sorry but wraps are worthless. unless you some how find yourself needing a little more spine. Your stuck with a long arrow, so gpi is a factor if you have a target weight. A 300 spine arrow is VERY stiff even at 29" 70# so you'll have a tough time putting a head too heavy on it. A 125grn would be a minimum for me. Good luck, and flex it first   

[RadSav]

So is this the sort of thing you do for a living. I hope your not spending too much time for this thank you for answering the questions the guys at the pro shop wouldn't.

So is this the sort of thing you do for a living?

I sell archery peep sights and soon to be Savora broadheads for "A Living". 

Early on in my archery career I sat down to breakfast with Chuck Adams before the old Anderson Archery show.  He was telling me how I should get one of Easton's super fancy (and damn expensive) arrow straighteners for my Savora Cam-Shaft aluminum arrows.  The same arrows he was shooting at the time.  Trying to be a know-it-all punk kid I spouted off my limited knowledge of Easton testing showing that arrows shot through a machine were unable to shoot any better than X.XXXX" of straightness and my less expensive straightener could more than get that job done.  After a couple seconds of giving me no response other than that famous Adams smile he explained that at full draw he wants his mind at complete peace with his equipment top to bottom.  Only when your equipment is beyond perfect can one eliminate all question and focus 100% on perfect aim, release and follow-thru.

That breakfast conversation has echoed around in my head ever since.  And when I combined that approach to equipment preparation with Savora's approach to aiming my success in the field became substantial.   With my target panic woes I still have one heck of a time punching paper dots with high efficiency.  But, no longer are the days when my in the field mantra was "Oh I hope I don't miss this shot".  Now my mantra is "I AM Randy Ulmer" and my freezer is always full.

With a personality that always strives to learn more and perfect everything I rarely find everlasting peace with equipment.  However, over the course of the past 30+ years of shooting the bow and striving for excellence in my set up I have stumbled upon a few things I refer to as "Magical".  Some of those things have remained constant throughout the years and cross all advancing technology and material boundaries.  None more so than the 12% FOC with broadheads.  So it is one of the few things I really try to promote even though it really has very little to do with the sale of peep sights.

thank you for answering the questions the guys at the pro shop wouldn't.

If the guys at your local archery shop "Won't" answer your questions I'd start looking for a new archery shop.  If they are "unable" to answer your questions, though disappointing, I wouldn't worry about it much.  They might have other strengths and talents that make up for a lack of knowledge on such things.

The owner of one of my favorite shops never killed an animal with a bow before he purchased the shop.  And, to this day he has only taken one cow on private land and a few does.  I never ask him for advise on hunting, though he does like to give it often, but he is a good person and their service level is pretty darned good.

[RadSav]

OK Newred here is what I have:

These FOC numbers will very slightly with the longer lower mass profile of a broadhead like the Stinger, but for all practical purposes they should be accurate.  You are right about the Primal liking a stiffer arrow.  In nearly every optimal variation the 300 spine is best when you reduce your poundage a little bit.  I find that I always prefer my limbs maxed out if the arrow will allow.  So if 70 is good for you I'd try that poundage first and only back out the limbs as a last resort to achieve perfect flight.

The Beman ICS Hunter is a perfect arrow for your set up.  Not all 300 spined arrows react with the same integrity when dynamic forces are applied.  I am a fan of the FMJ, however due to the dynamic spine differences I seriously doubt you will find it as tune friendly as the Beman at or near your max draw weight.  So I have not supplied any figures on it.  At around 475 grains with a 300 Beman setup you are going to have plenty of energy for penetration on anything you decide to shoot here in North America.

With this length and spine of arrow 125 grain point is the best option in nearly every variation.  As a result all shown variations are compiled with the 125 grain point.  Only the weight of insert is changed.

As I mentioned to JLS arrows in the length you are looking at can sometimes be a little tricky when using short vanes and broadheads.  But, longer vanes are not always the answer either as crosswinds eat up longer shafts and the longer vanes only encourage more wind drift.  More and more I find myself shooting either the AAE Max Hunter vane in three fletch or Blazers four fletched with longer full length arrows.  The weight of those two variations are almost exactly the same so what you see under four fletched Blazers would also be for three fletched AAE Max Hunters.  The Squaw has been shooting four fletched Blazers on 25.5" ICS Hunters for about 10 years now and I most certainly can not complain about her results.

OK.  G5 Primal @ 70#  29.5" Draw length
Beman ICS Hunter 300 spine with Easton Super Nock
Insert is Beman ViBrake = 23 grains
Optional Insert is Carbon Express @ 13 grains
All points are 125 grain

29.5" 3 fletch Blazer  full helical no/wrap
Vibrake Insert = 13% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 67#
C/E Insert = 12.2% FOC -  Optimum spine performance at 67.5#

29.5" 3 fletch Blazer  full helical with Carbon Blazer Wrap
Vibrake Insert = 12.2% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 67#
C/E Insert = 11.3% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 67.5#

29" 3 fletch Blazer  full helical no/wrap
Vibrake Insert = 13% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 68.5#
C/E Insert = 12.2% FOC -  Optimum spine performance at 69#

29" 3 fletch Blazer  full helical with Carbon Blazer Wrap
Vibrake Insert = 12.4% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 68.5#
C/E Insert = 11.5% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 68.5#

29.5" 4 fletch Blazer  full helical no/wrap
Vibrake Insert = 12.1% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 67#
C/E Insert = 11.2% FOC -  Optimum spine performance at 67#

29.5" 4 fletch Blazer  full helical with Carbon Blazer Wrap
Vibrake Insert = 11.4% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 67#
C/E Insert = 10.5% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 67#

29" 4 fletch Blazer  full helical no/wrap
Vibrake Insert = 12.2% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 68.5#
C/E Insert = 11.4% FOC -  Optimum spine performance at 69#

29" 4 fletch Blazer  full helical with Carbon Blazer Wrap
Vibrake Insert = 11.6% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 68.5#
C/E Insert = 10.7% FOC - Optimum spine performance at 69#

Myself I like wraps on carbon arrows.  It assures great fletching adhesion and gives greater recognition of arrow impact.  It greatly assists the recovery of arrows after misses or pass thru.  If your arrow is flying correctly it really does nothing to assist vision of your arrow in flight.

With today's arrow rests there really is no reason to have an extra inch or so of arrow hanging out over the shelf.  Full containment rests actually work better if you keep your fingers off of the arrow while drawing.  So if it were me I would lean toward the 29" length matching closer to your chosen 70#.

No matter which way you go it looks like this is going to be a good solid bow/arrow/point combination.  One that will penetrate well with more than adequate speed and can handle nearly any surprises mother nature decides to throw at you.

Hope this has been helpful to you.  And "Thank You" for the nice PM.

Sorry I ran this one a little long.  Looks like I could have simplied it just a bit.  Perhaps I should go get a life,